[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to episode 36 of Wildflower Matters, the official podcast of the Bureau of Land Management, Fire and Aviation. I'm your host, Caleb Ashby with BLM External Affairs. Each month, we bring you inside the world of wildland fire management, highlighting the people, tools, and decisions that protect our public lands and the communities that depend on them. Today, we're focusing on dozer operation, what it takes to operate heavy equipment during a wildfire, and how decisions about where to cut line are made in the heat of the moment. It's a job that requires precision and coordination. Joining me today are Dustin Hall, a seasoned wildland dozer operator, and Eric Kriwox, an experienced resource or reed, who helps guide tactical decisions protect critical environmental and cultural resources.
Dustin. Eric, welcome to the show. Okay, let's start by learning a little more about each of you. Dustin, how did you first get into dozer operations on wildland fire, and what path brought you to where you are today?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: I started my fire career back in 2003, I believe, and started on the engines. And I guess throughout the years I just watched the dozer crew and see what they did. And course my dad was a part of it and a lot of my dad's friends and I just saw that they were the ones putting fires out and I wanted that. I kind of got wore out of the engines and I wanted something new, and then I chased this and now I love it.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah. So explain a little more about your dad too, because we. I know your dad as well too, and he has kind of a legacy as far as wildland fire goes in the dozer program. Like how. When did he start fighting fire?
[00:01:44] Speaker B: I don't know what year he started fighting fire, but it was. I know he's around for 30 some years.
He was on the fire crew for a while, then he went to. Did the force account thing, but. And then of course, they helped us out a lot or back then and fought fire when they need more operators or needed equipment somewhere. But. Yeah, I just remember, of course, he never made it to a single one of my birthdays in the middle of July because he was always a firefighter. So you know how I feel about birthdays now, but.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Awesome. Okay, Eric, how about you? What led you to become a resource advisor? And how was your role? How has your role evolved over the years?
[00:02:17] Speaker C: So I've always done fire as a secondary to my. My normal job. I started out in range, but I went forward with fire. Made it up to an engine boss and a dozer boss, single resource level.
But I Always just felt like, you know, drawn to fire. I like being in fire and as a range person, being a resource advisor, just kind of naturally fit because you take. Typically know what's going on on the ground, you know, the resource issues, you can help out. And it's just something that I always enjoyed doing. So.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So why don't you explain a little more about like what a reed actually does on a fire and kind of like what you're thinking when you roll up to a fire, when you get dispatched and sent out along with the crews and everything.
[00:03:06] Speaker C: So resource advisors can wear lots of different hats and really it's, it depends on what the issues are in that particular area. But you know, what I am thinking about when I go to a fire is where. Well, number one, where the fire is and what resources are there. Whether it's agency dozers primarily. If it's. Especially now in Twin Falls, we have a lot of RFPA resources, contract resources really it's about communication and building relationships. I mean with our, with our local resources, you know, Twin Falls and, and Boise, we work with Boise a lot. There's already that relationship built and there's already that high level of trust. Most of them know what our issues are. I can shift to more of a, you know, almost a scout at that point, you know, thinking about where the fire is going to go, what issues we might run into in the second burn period, things like that.
But I've always, I've always taken the, the position that it truly is an advisory role.
It's not my job to go out there and say, hey, cut line there, don't cut line there. I don't, I don't get involved in tactics.
My job is to make sure the IC knows what issues are there and that I'm reporting back to the agency administrator. Keeping those lines of communication open.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's one of those things from like wildland fire that a lot of people don't consider is when you go out and cut line there is, you know, the resource values that are out there when you go out, whether it's sage grouse habitat, whether it's riparian areas, all that kind of stuff. You already got got that in your head when you're rolling out to those incidents and you're going to identify those beforehand. But like, I think what you're saying is you've identified those issues before you roll out there and you know, if like, hey, we got to move things around here or like this is going to be an issue. So like let's see if we can go around there. But you're not exactly saying telling the ic, like we can and can't cut line here type thing. That's up to the ic.
[00:05:05] Speaker C: Exactly. And, you know, and something especially in the garbage field office and in parts of Boise, we have slick spot pepper grass. Yeah, that's a big one. Again, you know, our local dozer operators, our local ICs, are all very well aware of that issue.
Typically, fire is a bigger threat to that species than cutting a line close to it. So again, you know, that level of trust, that relationship that's there, we're telling the resources on the ground, this is what's here. They're making the decision on how to put the fire out.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Excellent.
Okay, Dustin, walk us through what a typical day looks like when you're on a fire assignment, operating a dozer. From getting your assignment to shutting down at night. What's your workflow?
[00:05:48] Speaker B: I guess the day kind of starts out with, of course, all the equipment inspections and make sure everything's running, fueled up, ready to go, because you might start here and end up 100 miles away. Yeah, you got to plan that out accordingly. These machines only. Only can go so far and so long without some maintenance. And if you don't get that maintenance done, they're going to shut down on you. Other than that, you know, we're going to go to briefings and stuff and get our tactical assignments. And then, of course, if they want us to tie in with a read and. And work out a plan on how we're going to do that. It kind of depends on if you're in the trees or in the desert or where you're at. But I personally don't do a whole lot of team stuff, so it's mostly I.A. what I do. But occasionally I do other than that. You know, we. We go forth with the assignment for the day. And then, of course, we try to keep what's coming from the read and reads like Eric are nice because, you know, fire and you know that we might have to put a line here. It's my, you know, reads that aren't real experience with fire. They don't understand why we put lines. What do we do? So it helps out a lot to have fire experience. It's definitely huge for us.
Other than that, you know, we go out, complete the mission for the day, and do what you can. I'm big on being light on the land, so I don't. If I don't have to cross the creek 12 times, you know, I'd rather burn up a little more, you know, brush or something in order to not mess the crick up real bad kind of deal. So other than that, you know, finishing out the day and then you get back and do the maintenance on your. On your stuff again and move on for the next day, I guess.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's one of the thing. Maybe you can explain a little bit the difference between initial attack and extended attack. Like, you guys are primarily doing initial attack type stuff, so you're the first ones to the fires. Typically out in front of the dozers a lot of the times.
I mean, sorry, out in front of the engines a lot of the times punching in line, dozers are falling up behind you guys. But like, what does like an extended attack fire look like for you guys? Like maybe in the force or something extended.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: The cap's more. The attack is more like a. It's a team deal. Most of the time you have a specific, you know, you hit this ridge, connect to here, go to this road, do this, do that, and there's other resources out on the line. You're working for a division.
It's a different ball game. You know, being on a big campaign fire or whatever, whatever you want to call it compared to being IAIA is I'm IC can't be out there with me. There's no engines out there. I'm making the decisions on what I see fit, you know, being safe for me and doing what's best to put the fire out. So I guess the main difference is a team fire is more planned out.
And I have a strict mission where they're IA I can cut line for a couple days and wonder where I'm at and how somebody's gonna get fuel to me and. You know what I mean?
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's really good. Okay, let's see. Eric, when do you usually step into the picture on an incident? Are you involved in the planning stages before the dozers start cutting line?
[00:08:38] Speaker C: Kinda like Dustin was saying on initial attack, you know, they're. They're going off of their. Their constraints list. You know, a lot of times as a resource advisor, you know, you're not there when the first resources hit the ground.
Typically they've called in, say, hey, is it okay to drop a blade? The agency administrator has said yes or no or wait for the resource advisor.
But yeah, I mean, typically we're a little bit behind them again on that. That second burn period. If it goes out of initial attack, you know, we'll usually be at the briefing the next Morning. And, you know, that evening of initial attack, maybe we're.
We're sitting down with the IC or a division and, and talking some strategy, but really, you know, we're showing up and things are going, you know, there's engines flanking the fire, there's dozers, there might be a tractor disc, there's, you know, aircraft in the air, and we're just kind of figuring out what's going on and then trying to tie in with the IC and say, hey, what do you need from me right now? Mm. And that can go a lot of different ways, but typically the planning side of it doesn't really come into play until that second burn period.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And like, somebody like you, like, you had a range background, you said, so you're. You're gonna know a lot of those issues, like where the fences are at, roads and all that stuff beforehand for you get out there. So you're gonna be pretty valuable resource to the ICs and all those folks when you get out there and you start getting into this extended attack scenarios.
[00:10:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Saying like, water. Water sources are huge. Whether there's open top t that we can, you know, draft an engine out of or even do helicopter operations out of. Things like that are. Are what we really are, are trying to think about and share that information as soon as we can.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And then probably, yes, if there's cattle out there, you're going to know where those are probably at, you know, see when their season of use is and stuff. And if you're going to have to have somebody, the landowner or not the landowner, but the.
The operator, the permittee out there move their. Their cows or whatever. Or if I. You got HMAs out in Twin Falls?
[00:10:41] Speaker C: We do have one, yeah.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So you can have to be moving horses around if you have to or something like that. So. Okay, very good. Um, let's see. Dustin, have you had times when a read like Eric needed to reroute or adjust your assignment? How do you handle those conversations on the ground?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Ah, yes, I've had many. I would say most of the time for us, though, I mean, being I. We know our district, we know what resources are at risk and we know what we should and shouldn't do. And, and you know, we have trigger points if houses aren't threatened or people are threatened. The rules change, obviously, but, you know, it. It's good to get a feel for your resource advisor and see what. What they know about fire and dozers and, you know, what you're capable of A lot of times they want things that are so steep, I'm gonna make it worse if we go back down it again kind of deal.
But yeah, Riparian areas are huge for us because the fire is going to cross the creek somewhere.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: So.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And either you got to put a hand line across it, a hose lay. They don't want it in there. They don't want those lines. So you got to work a lot with them on what do you want to do here and how are we going to mitigate it? Because you got to tie the lines together.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: If you leave that gap, the fire is going to squirt out right there and you have a whole new game. So like I said, most of the time we don't. We don't really see the resource advisors until the next day.
Initial attack. You know, we're out there doing what we do, but usually the next day they're incorporated in on us, telling us what to look out for.
Major concerns. Other than that.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: They give us pretty free reign. But.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Very nice. So, Eric, is there training that you go through to become a Reed? I mean, is there task books like you would have on the fire side of things, or is that kind of separate? Or how's that work?
[00:12:25] Speaker C: So I was kind of grandfathered in. Okay. You know, but. But there is now. Yeah, we. We do have a. There is a resource advisor initial training.
And then we have Now. So they have the Reed resource advisor. And then they also have what's called a reef, which is resource advisor fire line. And really the difference is, is what's on your red card and what classes you've taken. Areed doesn't have a work capacity test requirement or if they do, it's light. I can't remember. I think they took it away, though. And the reef qualification requires the moderate PAC test and then a few more what you would call like rookie school type classes.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:06] Speaker C: Again, I. I kind of started before a lot of that really was put into place. In Twin Falls, we also do annual refresher trainings for all the resource advisors on the district.
So. Yeah, I mean, they're running a tighter ship than they were 20 years ago. But you know, think about differences in fires from now, from 20 years ago. It's astronomical. So.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Oh yeah. I mean, I can think of having put out fires and twin and stuff just like the size of fires. What we're. You guys are dealing with now, it's just like you. I mean, it's not a big deal to burn Ben burn 10,000.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah. That's. That's not even. Yeah. A real big fire anymore.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So when you guys roll out, do you have like, do you use Avenza maps or what do you use to make sure, like, where, you know, where everything's at?
[00:13:57] Speaker C: So. So I. I use Avenza maps probably more than anything. But we.
Incorporating the Agol, the field maps, and collector, which works pretty well because a lot of the Dozer ops are using those same things in. In the dozers.
And, you know, and again, there's sync issues with. With cell service. But on that second burn period, usually, you know, they're. They're. If we put anything on the map, they're seeing it vice versa. We can see where their lines were.
So that's becoming more and more of the way we're going. I still really like Avenza.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: It's just simple and it always works.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's downloaded. You don't have to worry about cell coverage, all that kind of stuff.
[00:14:37] Speaker C: Y.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: So dust, do you.
I remember before there was. They wanted to actually record Dozer line as you're cutting. Are you guys still doing that with your map stuff or do you map your Dozer lines afterward?
[00:14:49] Speaker B: That's primarily on our district anyways. Our. That's our IC's role.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: They're in charge of that because I may go Forward and backward 20 times or go catch this or go back and you know what I'm saying.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: So I've tried to track it. I'm a. I'm an Avenza. My big one I like is Onyx because I can see topography, I can see everything. And you can load Onyx maps to where they're offline. It's light years. I never have got into the collector. None of that. I just can't get it to work.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: People say it's great, but it's just not me. So.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you guys run iPads or you just run it off your phone or.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: I just run it off my phone. We've tried the iPads. Problem is inside of the cab, if you get too much light going on, glares off all the windows.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: I gotcha.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Like an iPads, you'd have to dull the screen down and it's just too big. Too much.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: I gotcha. Okay.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: My main concerns are pipelines, stuff like that. So.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Why don't you jump into that a little bit. Explain what you're worried about on pipeline stuff. Because I don't think a lot of people understand that we have natural gas or oil or whatever it is. Like, what do you got?
[00:15:47] Speaker B: So depending on where we go, we have. I think there's four major pipelines that go through our district here, maybe three. Anyways, we have maps specifically for those operators that are stuff that can hurt us badly, you know, pipelines. We keep important stuff on there, like train tracks, like Oregon Trail, any of those kind of things.
So we get. Of course, we go to trainings every year for what to do around pipelines and. And we don't cross them ever. Unless it's an improved crossing deal. But mainly for mapping. That's. That's my big thing. And they have a lot of the resource things on there. But I like to keep it plain because. Yeah, I want to build that pipeline to stick out like a sore thumb and.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Is it. Are they pretty easy to see when you're in the dozer?
[00:16:30] Speaker C: Like.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: No. So when you're cutting line, if you can. If you can see your blade, you're doing good.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: So most of the time, depending on the wind's blowing and how that goes, everything in the dozer's off feel. So, you know, if there's a cliff in front of me and the wind's blown the wrong way until my dirt disappears, I don't know. You know what I mean? It's like I've always said it's the most dangerous job in the. In fighting fire. But that's my opinion.
But until you've been in one and see what we see, it's the pipeline markers. Are the pipelines between it? Hopefully.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: But even the people that work there will say hopefully and how deep it is. So I don't want to play that game.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Because they're not very deep wherever they're at. I mean.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: No. And you can't. It's hard to get a straight answer out of how deep it is. And I don't. I don't want to risk it.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: I want to go home at night.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So when you do have to cross them, do you have to go find.
Like you said, like an improved. What did you call it, like an improved crossing.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah, like an improved crossing. So we do maps in the spring fall, we will basically do more tours and work with the pipelines on where we can cross where. And we've actually built crossings using them before. And. And you know, we put dirt on it and it's got to be this deep, be strategic about it. So if we have a fire out in an area that we don't have to go load the dozer up, go back kind of Deal. We can walk a mile down there, cross pipeline, then come back. I gotcha. So we tour the pipelines every year just to get another feel for them. We haven't on all of our maps and.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: Okay. Anyhow, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't think a lot of people understand that that portion of it, like that's.
I mean, just talking about the danger to you. But then also, if you do even get close to one of those, I'm sure that the pipeline people are gonna have to go out there and take a look at it. If you cut line anywhere close to it or anything like that as well.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: So they know you're there.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
Awesome. Okay, so this kind of plays into a little bit. Dustin was talking about, like steep topography and where you can and can't cut line. So, Eric, so does the landscape factors into your recommendation? Are there areas where dozers off limits or require extra precautions?
[00:18:31] Speaker C: Yeah, and the steep stuff for sure, always comes into play. One of the other kind of unique things that we have a lot of, because we have the lava fields, we have a lot of caves, and there are. And even where we don't have caves, where there's the potential to damage that cave or have an accident with a heavy piece of equipment, sometimes it's just not worth it. Trying to walk a dozer through lava to get, you know, it's just. I. I've been on that game, you know, where you spend all night trying to go three miles across rock and you'd have been better off to. To load up and go around the other side and tie into the rock over there. So that's kind of one of the more unique things that we have. Yeah. And, you know, with the canyons, you know, trying to tie into them perpendicular, you know, using the topography different ways, rehab on steep stuff. You know, we use excavators occasionally to do our rehab, water bars and put the berm back down just because it's steep enough that maybe they walk the. The dozer backwards up the hill and then pushed line down.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:19:38] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's always a. It's always a factor when you start getting into some different topography.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I forgot about the lava flows and stuff over there in that Twin Falls area. And I mean, it's like. I don't know how. I mean, it would be a nightmare, I would think, in just trying to walk a dozer across some of that rocky stuff. I mean, just beat you to heck anyways. But yeah, I never thought about the cave portion of it, like falling into One or.
[00:19:59] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: Cave in one end or something like that. Yeah, that's a little spooky.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Okay, operator, thank you.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Okay, here, let's jump into the equipment side of things. Dustin, tell us about the type of dozers and equipment that you guys run in Boise. One of the things I don't think we mentioned before is Boise has, I think probably the biggest dozer program for the blm. And then Twin Falls I think is probably number two. I bet as far as like the amount of equipment that you guys operate here. So as far as the Great Basin goes, dozers are a extremely valuable tool. And that's why Twin Falls and Boise district runs so many dozers, because they're extremely useful. Put out a ton of fire with them. But why don't you explain a little bit about like the equipment that you manage and operate in Boise?
[00:20:46] Speaker B: So underneath me, I have, I guess, four dozers, four operators, three water trucks, and of course along with all that comes semis and trailers. And I think I manage 27 pieces of equipment every day.
So it's a lot. And everything we use is our dozers are all D6s, the different generations of them, and they all have their problems. So the operators are good about fixing their own stuff. Yeah, they're weighing a hundred thousand pounds loaded on a trailer. So the whole package. The dozers weigh about 60ish. So they're big, heavy machines. Yeah, we pop a lot of tires. You know, there's a lot of. As soon as we roll out to a fire call, the. It gets dangerous right out of the gate, you know what I mean? And then you blow a tire on the freeway and you're playing that game. It's always something, it feels like. And they're big, heavy metal things that don't like lava or rocks, period.
But yeah. Did I answer you?
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. So you guys all pretty new dozers? Like what, like what's your oldest one, you would say?
[00:21:47] Speaker B: I believe our oldest is a 2003. 13. Yeah, I know this would be a 20. 23.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that's nice equipment. I went and looked at some of your guys's stuff and it's like, yeah, this is way. I think the BLM in general has stepped up a lot on what kind of joes, because they are such critical pieces of equipment. Then also, if you're running old equipment, you're gonna have more issues. It's going to put the operator in more precarious situations. You need to have good equipment that just operates well. And that's one of the things you guys do, your maintenance is fantastic. You spend all winter months taking care of stuff, getting everything ready for the.
But then every day you're doing all your, your checks and everything and making sure everything's ready to roll because you don't want to get caught out in the middle of nowhere and have a dozer die on you with fire running around. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Okay, so let's go into kind of post fire restoration stuff a little bit. So Eric, your full time job, you're the esr.
[00:22:40] Speaker C: I'm the ESR lead for the Twin Falls.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: For the Twin Falls district. So why don't you explain folks what ESR is and like what you guys do, you know, like immediately, like, because you guys roll out, you roll out as like an ESR lead on the fires typically do.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, we're not usually going out during that initial attack period anymore.
Day two, day three.
So I guess I'll back up. So ESR is emergency stabilization and rehabilitation. I think he did a podcast with Jake and Brandon here a while back, so that's probably all been kind of explained. But.
But when we have a fire, it's important to get out there as soon as we can to start thinking about rehab because we have some pretty hard and fast deadlines and the deadlines all start at containment of the fire, not control.
So obviously the sooner we're there, the sooner we get that ball rolling, the sooner we get the budget set up, the better chances we are of having successful rehabilitation of the fire. So. So yeah, typically. And in Twin Falls, we have a fire ecologist for each field. Each of the three field offices, they actually work for the fuels program, but they do the ESR plans for their respective offices. So typically I will visit the fire with whichever fire ecologist is appropriate and we just start thinking about, okay, this is what we want to do.
These are the types of treatments that we're looking at. We talk to the resource advisor, find out, you know, what they saw during the fire, if they had any recommendations, you know, fences that got burned, that need rebuilt, whether that we want to do a drill seeding or not, aerial seatings, noxious weeds treatments are pretty ubiquitous in all of our plans. But yeah, so. So we're going out as soon as we possibly can and getting that ball rolling on the rehab plan.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah, getting those plans already put together, like.
[00:24:36] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's pretty neat that like you're going to be out there figuring out what exactly you need and you're buying Seed and the whole nine yards down the road setting up contracts and the whole thing. And I think that's thing dust too. Like, you guys do a lot of the ESR work in the fall months and like, explain what that is for you guys. Like, typically what you guys do.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Coming up through my whole career, that's. That's how I kept working for the BLM was. I was always a seasonal or crew seasonal. And in the wintertime, we'd work for ESR and do all the big drill seedings and all, fix all the fences and all that kind of stuff. And there's a ton of work that goes into that. And so, yeah, that's how I came up. Starting to run big equipment for the BLM anyways. And, you know, we drill seed with dozers and tractors and all that stuff, and it turned into this.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that's got to be a pretty kind of holistic view at a fire is like you're going out there doing the suppression on it, and then you're going back probably, you know, in a couple months, you know, toward the end of the season, and then you're going to start doing rehab on that same area that you did suppress it on. So it's like you're doing the drill seeding or you're doing the fence repair or. I mean, typically we do a lot of contracts for the fence repair, but like the drill seeding and dozer line seating, all that stuff, you guys are doing a lot of that?
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Typically right after the season, we're starting to make plans for those line reseeding. And when we leave fires on our district, we try to make sure everything's rehabbed. Yeah, those lines were pulling the berms back in, putting water bars in. You know, if we. Talking to the reeds and trying to do what they want. But there's sometimes like. Like Eric was saying that you need the right equipment for the right job, so Using excavators. But we. We have equipment we can take back and. And do it right in the spots that we couldn't get with the dozers.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Gotcha. So, yeah. Yeah. And then. So do you guys still use. I don't twin. Do you guys use dozers for your rehab or do you guys primarily use tractors?
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Primarily rubber tire tractors, yeah. I mean, there are times when we have used dozers and you know that that is an option, but most of the time, yeah, we're using rubber tire trackers.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: And Boise. Is that still the same?
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah, we're. We're 90% rubber tire truck. It's when you get into the stobs and you're popping a lot of tires kind of deal, and you need. You need something with metal tracks.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: And the poor guy that's in it.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: We do, you know, we do occasionally do, like, some chainings, like if we have a fire in juniper and we want to knock the. The dead trees down, you know, we'll. We'll use dozers for that kind of stuff. But. Yeah, it's been. It's been.
I'm trying to think. I. I know the last rehab that we used a dozer on, it's been quite a few years ago, so just.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Slower, more expensive operate and all that stuff.
[00:27:11] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: I'd rather run a tractor a lot smoother.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I believe it. Yeah. I remember on some of the fires we rehabbed in Boise, but early on in my career, we'd have, I think, nine or 10 tractors out running with seed, and then like the heavy equipment crew did all the logistics as far as hauling seed out there, seed vans, and just getting fuel out to everybody. And it's like, it's a huge operation when you start these big drill seating projects. And then you have that, plus you're doing your fence and all the other stuff at the same time. And it's like the logistics alone that goes into something like that is. It's a complicated deal.
[00:27:51] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: So. Yeah.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: And you're on a time trunch trying to beat winter.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah. You're trying to get it all in before the snow flies, and. And then you got like an aerial seating going on at the same time that you're trying to get seed hauled around for and all that stuff. And yeah, it's. It's a complicated issue. Like, after the fire's out, like, it's. It gets complicated when you're trying to do the ESR portion of it.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: So. Okay. Doing pretty well on time here. Okay. So, Dustin, what advice would you give to somebody thinking about becoming a dozer operator and wildland fire?
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Oh, I'd say my biggest advice to becoming a good dozer operator would be to become a firefighter first. We can teach most anybody how to run a dozer, how to drive a truck, how to be safe, how to do all that stuff. But fighting fires, there's learn through repetition, learn through experiences. And.
And if it's like I said, it's, in my opinion the most dangerous thing fighting fire. But if you don't know what you're doing in a dozer and you're you can't see nothing, and you got fire rolling at you, and you haven't been in these situations before. Being a firefighter, I wouldn't say there's a specific call you need to be to. To start working on it, but at least five years of good quality fire experience, it definitely helps. And it. It's hard to teach an operator that does not have a lot of fire experience because they're not watching what the column is doing. You know, is it standing up? Is it coming at you? You know, there's times that you get closer, there's times that you bump away, and that comes with fire experience. And through teaching many new operators, you can definitely tell right out of the gate whether they've been on an engine and been right up in the flames, just how. How they act and where they put the machine.
To me, that's the biggest thing.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think now. So you. We were talking the other day that there's a dozer academy. Is that like a yearly thing or how often do you guys do that now?
[00:29:42] Speaker B: It's usually about every other year now.
[00:29:44] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: The first few years we put it on, it was. It was yearly because it was new and. And a lot of the Utah and those states were growing their dozer programs, so they needed a lot of trainings to. I guess. So now it's kind of. It's kind of. It's still going, but it slowed down a little bit because there's. We've got everybody caught up basically.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: And there's a lot of. There's a lot of new operators, and we deal with a lot of operators that think they want to be an operator, and then they may come to the academy and get in a dozer and not like it. I mean, like, it's. It looks fun and it is fun, but it's not for everybody.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: You know what I mean? That academy is huge, though, because it gets everybody. We get them to put a lot of dozer line in around military base, and there's not a lot of rules out there for. For where we can and can't go in. And they get a lot of good stick time to. To figure it out and see if they like it and see if they want to pursue it.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's. I think that's pretty neat. Like you said, that's pretty new thing that's really come into existence because I think, you know, across the board, like, a lot of these people that came up in the dozer program were probably on like a heavy equipment crew beforehand and stuff. And then they were in fire and then made the transition over. And I don't think there was really like a formal way of people to come up through before. And it sounds like you guys are formalizing that. Yeah, way a lot more than what it was before.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Of course, when I came into it, it was. It was before all the task stuff.
And then now we have our taskbooks and you got to be heavy equipment boss in order to be Dzia and you have a DZOP taskbook, which is good. It's good for everybody. And it helps people, actually. And it takes. Honestly, it takes four or five years to become before I'll sign somebody off anyways. Yeah, I want to make sure that you can be out in front of a massive fire with, you know, nothing around, nobody to talk to, and you can make the right decision to keep yourself safe and put the fire out.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, because I think for, like, dozer operation, like, you're acting pretty independently. You know, you're out in front, like the thing, and then you're also operating a big, dangerous piece of equipment. Big, expensive piece of equipment. I mean, like, what's a dozer cost? 3, 3, 4?
[00:31:48] Speaker B: They're about 6 now.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: About $600,000. Not including your, your truck or your transport and getting that thing out there and everything. Like, it's a, a high risk position. And so you're going to want to make sure, like, anybody that jumps in there knows what they're doing and you're confident and you're not going to sign them off on. Be able to take on that kind of responsibility of being really sure what they're capable of.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And then as soon as you go to the trees, it's a whole new ball game. Yeah, that's. They fight fire differently there. And, and you may be a great operator in the desert, but going to go to the trees and that air on the back of your neck's going to stand up. And, you know, I like to get people lots of experience. I don't want to worry about somebody. I don't want to take a day off worrying about somebody running my dozer that could potentially get hurt. So it's all that's on me if, if I'm signing somebody off and if I'm not comfortable with it, we don't let it happen, obviously.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: But. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, that's really good. So, Eric, kind of the same question for you, like, if somebody wants to be a read, like, what channels do you think they should Come up through.
[00:32:45] Speaker C: Well, kind of like Dustin saying, you know, same but different. Right.
The more fire experience or the more just exposure to fire and, and what fires like in your particular area where you're going to be working, you know, because again, a desert fire way different in grass way different than a desert fire, and sagebrush way different than a timber fire. Obviously, you know, I.
Some fire experience I think is huge, hugely beneficial. But just knowing their area, knowing the resources, the road, the maze of roads that are out there in some of our field offices, man, we have hundreds of miles of pipelines and troughs and tanks and understanding that, understanding where livestock are, where sensitive habitat is, where, where, you know, and, and we've had so much fire that a lot of our better habitat is, is now micromanaged and loved to, you know, the nth degree. And knowing where that is and saying, hey, whatever we can do to, to keep that little patch of sagebrush intact, you know, so just knowing the area, having a relationship with the permittees, the adjacent landowners, so. Because again, like I said early in the podcast, you know, Resource Advisor wears lots of hats. One of them is, you know, kind of what you do is kind of that, that public relations aspect. You know, you're the one. If there's an upset member of the public out there, whether it's a permittee worried about their, their livelihood or, you know, looky, lose, whoever it may be, oftentimes it falls on the Resource Advisor to go over there and have a conversation with them, kind of, you know, make them feel comfortable with what's going on with, you know, take that off of the IC and the divisions or any other resources as much as you can so that they can do their job.
[00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, like, and you make a really good point about, like, you're that one out there, that interface between the permittees or whatever. And I think like all the resource advisors I ever work with, the best ones are always the range cons, because they're out there with the folks managing the cattle. They, they know where everything's at. And it's like you go out there and you're going to know this permittee, and that permittee is going to say, hey, can we go around this way? You know, I got cows down here, we got water down here, like, whatever. And they're going to be a huge resource for you when you roll out to those fire. And like, if you're somebody that hasn't been in the field a lot, like, you're just not going to have that experience. And it's where those, that rain range people really understand what's going on out on the range out there all the time. It's like you can roll in there and just be a huge resource to the whole fire program at that point.
[00:35:26] Speaker C: Yep, that's right. And typically that is, that is who's going most of the time, it's the range people or it's the folks that are doing the monitoring that are. Their, their, their job is out there on the ground. Not to say that those other specialists can't be huge assets, because they are. You know, we have an archeologist that, that rarely goes to the field when we have a fire, but he goes to the office and he's looking at maps. He knows where the fire is.
He's a phone call away saying, hey, there's a historic trail here. Oh, yeah, there's, you know, historic cabin, there's some other property. And he's doing, I mean, he's doing everything on the computer with gis that you don't have available in the field. And that's huge.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:09] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's just, you know, there's different roles that a resource advisor can take and sometimes they're not even out there.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I think you said, like, that's a huge team effort because when you're rolling out as a resource advisor, you're the one that has to know, like, where the cultural stuff is at, where the, you know, the range stuff, where the wildlife issues are at, where the sensitive species you're at. Like, that's all on you to be coordinate with your specialist back in the field office or wherever they might be to make sure that those values are being looked at.
[00:36:38] Speaker C: Right. Yeah. And that's the thing. No one's going to be an expert on everything. But again, that communication and relationship building, whether it's with your colleagues with BLM or, you know, other agencies or the public, that knowing who to call to get the answer is huge.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that most people don't realize. Like when you roll out to a fire, it may just look like a grassland or, you know, sagebrush step or juniper. But there's all these other issues that you, unless you're out there a lot, you're not going to know. You're not going to know where the cultural resources are at, where there's artifacts or, you know, where there's, like you said, slick spot, pepper grass or all these things. Unless you're out there a lot and you've got this Team behind you. Like, you're not going to have any idea, right? Yeah.
[00:37:22] Speaker C: Yep. It's. It's definitely a team effort.
[00:37:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Excellent.
All right. Okay. So before we wrap up, is there anything either of you would like to share? Maybe something you wish more people understood about the role you play in wildfire management?
Besides, you put out all the fires.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: I didn't say that. I did not say that.
I just. My biggest thing is to be safer on the equipment.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: When you get new guys in, our crews are really great about it, but, like, take a day, bring them over, and somebody on our crew will go through it and show you where to stand. We're not stand. When you can walk up to us. You know, that's the last thing any of us want, and they're not forgiving. So, yeah, just. Just be careful around it. And we all want to go home at night. That's our goal.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: No fires, worse people not going home to me, so that'd be my biggest thing.
[00:38:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Excellent. I think, like, especially at night, like, those things are about impossible to see out of when you're rolling around at night and you got dust blowing around all over the place. So just steer clear of them.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: It is. And then, you know, make good eye contact with your operator. And I. I always tell people, let me get out. Don't crawl up on my tracks.
Just let me get out, and I'll come talk to you. It's a lot easier.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's good advice, man. Eric, what about you?
[00:38:40] Speaker C: You know, again, it's just. It's.
Being a resource advisor is hugely rewarding. And if you've got the opportunity to go, I mean, you're going to see, I've got to fly the fire in the helicopter. I've got to, you know, be a part of dozer operations, of, you know, engine operations, of working with hand crews.
So, you know, if it's something that. That you enjoy, you know, dive in with both feet, but ask lots of questions.
You know, don't be afraid to be a trainee and act like a trainee. You know, go with somebody who knows what they're doing. You know, listen, be available.
I think there's great opportunities. And, you know, our public lands are one thing they're not making more of anymore. So the more people that are involved and in taking care of them and making sure that.
That we're doing everything we can, the better, in my opinion.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So awesome. No, I totally agree with that. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you guys both coming to this. I know this is a little bit out of your guys wheelhouses, but that was fun. Yeah. No you guys, excellent chat with you. I think people will learn a lot from the segments and I think for me this is just a lot of value. Have always just really enjoyed the Dozer program and just seeing the amount of work they do. And then the reprogram is such a. Well, shouldn't say reprogram, but the read role is such a cool connection point between the resource side of things and wildland fire because they really are the same thing. Like good fire management is good land management. Good land management. Good fire management.
[00:40:14] Speaker C: Yep. And then. And then ties right into the rehab process.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:17] Speaker C: So it really is that vector between putting the fire out and putting the ground back to what we want to see it as.
[00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
Excellent. Okay. Thanks again, Dustin Eric, for sharing your stories and perspective. It's not every day we get to hear both operational and advisory side of what it takes to build and manage dozer lines or while on a wildfire. Your work plays a critical role in protecting both people places and we appreciate all that you do. If you have questions or comments or suggestions for future episodes, send them to blmfa
[email protected] with Wildfire Matters podcast in the subject line. To learn more about BLM's fire program, visit N Gov and follow us at blmfire on Facebook, Instagram and X.
Until next time, stay safe, stay sharp and be Wildfire aware. Thanks everyone.
