Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to the 34th episode of Wildfire Matters, the podcast that covers all aspects of wildland fire management, the Bureau of Land Management, or blm. We talk with the people who help manage and protect our public lands, many who dedicate their lives to the profession. Today we're interviewing two members of the Chena Hotshots, Galen Milchman, Leedsaw and Emily Evans, who is currently detailed to the North Star Fire Crew as overhead. Galen and Emily are here to tell us about what it's like to be a hotshot in Alaska, how they train to do this job, and how their past experiences have led them to where they are today. Welcome, Galen and Emily.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome to have you guys on. Thank you. So, first off, can you tell us a little bit more about yourselves? And. And Galen, we'll start with you. How did you end up in your current position?
[00:00:59] Speaker C: So, my sister lived in another small town in Alaska, Delta Junction, and I moved up to work with her and her current husband for the summer. And I saw the red card class was being offered, and so I took it.
And I didn't have any interest in going into fire that year, but one of the instructors suggested the next year I joined the North Stars.
And so I did. I was a North Star that year. I detailed to one of the state crews. I was at the state for another four years.
And then two years ago, I came back to Alaska Fire Service. I joined Sheena. I was a Sawyer my first year, and then I was Leadsaw last year, and I'll be leadsaw again this year.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: All right, nice. And, Emily, how about you?
[00:01:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I had a fairly unconventional start in getting into hot shotting. I worked for the state of Alaska building trails throughout when I was in college. And at that time, I was also running for my university when I was in school, like track and cross country. And after I graduated, the pandemic hit, and I immediately lost both jobs that I was working. And I accidentally, like, I did not know what job I was applying for. Applied to work at the unemployment office during a global pandemic.
Yeah, I worked there for about eight months, and I was called a lot of names on the phone, and I decided there's got to be more than this. So I quit that job. But when I quit, I made a promise to myself that I'd pursue Wildland, which was something that had been on my mind for a while. So I just started cold calling crews. And with my background in the state parks as well as my college running background, I ultimately Got picked up by Craig Hotshots in Colorado. Like completely green to fire, which is not what usually happens. They took a chance on me and allowed me to dive head first in the hot shotting and then I made my way to China. Hotshots in 22. I'm from Anchorage initially, so I knew I wanted to get back north and I can't say this is a path I would recommend to people who are pursuing the field, but it's how I got here, so. And then.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: Yeah, this.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Oh, I was just gonna say it is pretty wild to just start being a hotshot right off the bat. So how many years of firefighting experience do you typically does a typical hotshot have before they become a hotshot?
[00:03:49] Speaker C: I mean, probably just one. You want at least one and then if you show that you're fit and you're interview well, I'd say that's enough. Just showing you want to be there. But for sure, at least one just to get your foot in the door.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: And then oftentimes people might like detail into a hotshot crew and do a two week assignment with them sort of to test the waters. And that crew might pick them up the next year if things go well. So folks might be working on an engine or some sort of type 2 crew and get that detail and it's a good way for them to get their foot in the door. Or programs like the North Star. Shameless plug.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah. We'll talk more about the North Star crew later for sure. Sorry, Galen, were you going to say something?
[00:04:37] Speaker C: I was just going to expand on the north stars, but we can go over that later if that was sort of a.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, yeah. So hotshots definitely have a reputation in the fire world and being extra tough and handling especially difficult assignments. So can you talk about what kind of work you do and how it's different? Different from other fire crews?
[00:04:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess for us, our season sort of broken up into the Alaska season and the down south season and for the Alaska season it's such a huge state and there's really so few crews that we sort of pride ourselves on doing it all. And you know, when we go down south, we're doing a lot more just burning, cutting, hotline and those jobs that you traditionally associate with hotshot crews. But up here we're doing the whole gamut. It's like we show up when a fire small, often we cut it out, you know, either go direct or indirect and then we follow it through all the way to the end. So that that includes plumbing it, mopping up and gridding. And so I'd say that's one of the big differences for us up here is that we have to do all the things. And when we go down south with other shot crews, a lot of the more monotonous tasks are delegated to type 2 crews, such as, you know, just prepping line and whatnot. And we get to do the more exciting things, I guess. But, but up here we do it.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: All and we do some of the non exciting things down south too. But I'd say another big difference is just in the fires themselves up here. But like the road system is not. Road systems in Alaska aren't super extensive compared to how big the state is. And so a lot of the fires end up being outside of the road systems. And we use a lot of aerial support.
And once we're out at a fire, like there's no ICP or like, it's not like a fire camp is set up where you have all the resources coming in. There's very few resources out there, as Galen said. And so we're pretty much out in the, out at the fire for two or three weeks and oftentimes we don't really see other people while we're out there. And no cell service usually, you know, no showers, camped out, and then do our work and come back at the end of the assignment.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, Alaska's huge. So I imagine sometimes you're just way out there.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah, tough.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: I'm really grateful for. I've seen as someone who grew up in Alaska and born and raised here, this job has taken me to places that I would have likely never have gone to had I not been here. So that's a really cool part about it. And villages that I haven't been to before and really grateful for that.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I like that too. Even like my first year is just being out there. And it was pretty mind boggling to think that where we are standing, you know, aside from the local villagers, there's probably just only, you know, maybe no other people have really been in that spot. You're just so out there. And so I think that's a really cool feeling. And being at a cell service is great.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: It's really nice.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: It's just like you can turn it off and turn off the world for a bit. And that's, that's a good feeling.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's pretty rare to, to get that feeling nowadays for sure. So I want to kind of backpedal to some of the terms that you mentioned I haven't been on a fire crew myself. Um, I'm still learning terms. Right. And you mentioned plumbing and mopping up and indirect and direct.
[00:08:28] Speaker C: Mm.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: So some terms like that. How would you explain that to somebody who is not familiar with fire at all?
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So first off, apologies on the accidental jargon use. There is a lot of it in this line of work. And you were asking about plumbing or. I'll start with that. When we put in a hose lay. So basically have to transport water from some sort of source. In Alaska, it's usually a creek or a pond or something. It's not so much water tenders coming to fill up folded tanks because we don't have roads, so. Or we don't often have road access. But once we can establish a site for a pump to go in, then we utilize a lot of hose lays to transport water to where we need to. And that would. We call that plumbing something. So just means that water can be accessed and utilized, whether it's for.
If we're doing an indirect. Which means. Often means like, if you imagine there's like it's in an area where you can't get in and just cut out a buffer or dig some line around a fire to stop it. Indirect approach often means maybe burning off of a stretch to more or less create a buffer. Where this burnt area, it doesn't allow for the fire to come through and consume anything else. So it stops where it's at. But. So we'll burn, but then we will use water to make sure it is out out and. Among other things. But yeah, that's kind of one way to look at it. You want to touch on going direct and.
[00:10:19] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So I guess, yeah, sometimes, you know, it really varies our tactics based on what the fire is doing. And sometimes mother nature is just doing her thing, and we're really pretty small, and we're just not gonna be able to get close enough to it. And so, you know, you think about. People think about, yeah, we could just spray it with a hose. But some of these. Sometimes it's just so hot that a hose isn't gonna do anything. And you can't really get close enough in reality to even put water on it. So if it's just that hot, we sort of back off a bit and we. And we make a fuel break. We cut it out. And so in the lower 48, often you're just working off these forest service roads and you'll prep off the road. That's sort of what we see often in Alaska, where we don't have roads usually to work off of, we're just, we're cutting just a big, we're taking out all the trees in like a 30 foot section and making a big line. And then as Emily said, we'll burn off that or, you know, we'll do what makes sense. And then, or sometimes, you know, we'll get a lull in the weather, the fire will settle down a bit and then we'll go direct, which just means the saws will go ahead. They'll cut out the fire's edge so that the rest of the crew behind them can come through and dig a scratch line or a tundra block up here, because we have tundra instead of mineral soil or just put out the fire there. And so those are the, the two tactics. And then I guess a third, since we're talking about it, is sometimes we just pull all the way back and we just do structure protection. And that's just starting to make buffers around individual structures. There's hundreds and thousands, tens of thousands of just cabins out in the remotes of Alaska. And we have a, we have a really good system. GIS folks have done a great job of locating all those and putting little notes. So we have a really incredible understanding of where those is for the size of the area. But so sometimes we'll pull back and it's just like, here's the cabin. Protect the cabin and fire is going to do what it's going to do. And then. So plumbing, as Evan said Emily said, is, yeah, it's just laying hose. It's plumbing with hose mopping up is just going through all the spots and just making sure all the little heats are cold. It's especially important in Alaska because there's a tundra mat and the fire will burn really deep. And if we don't put it out, there's a good chance we'll leave and a couple days it'll dry back out and we're off to the races again.
And then gridding is you, you line out 10ft apart, 5ft apart, 15ft apart, whatever the specs are to accomplish the goal. And we just walk through in a line and you touch everything and make sure all the hot spots are out.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. And as far as like the tundra mat goes, as the summer goes on, it can get drier and drier. And so heat can be stored underneath tundra and be really sneaky. So it might look like nothing's burning. But that's why you have to be especially thorough and Galen mentioned tundra blocking as a tactic. And what that looks like is taking a Pulaski, which is the main tool for Alaska firefighting, like hand tool, that is basically an axe, a sharp axe, and then chopping kind of a, I guess like a pizza box size square. And then you can roll the tundra up and dig down underneath two permafrost. So you're utilizing permafrost in your tactics in Alaska, which is really interesting. And because you can't dig past the permafrost, start getting hit by ice. So. Yeah, but we try to set the tundra blocks aside and keep them intact because if we rehab that area, rehabilitate that area, we're trying to do as minimal damage to the landscape as possible. So we do take those precautions as well.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: Yeah, things have to be, we don't. There's a lot more manual labor involved up here, I guess, not more manual labor overall, but we really don't use any mechanized equipment. There's dozers. One, there's sort of often just. You can't get them out there. It's not really feasible. And two, if a dozer goes through and rips up the tundra, the permafrost under there is going to start melting.
And so it's just gonna, it's turning to soup and it's really gonna be an ecological disaster for that area. Yeah, so we're trying to, we're, you know, we're trying to minimize our impact on the landscape, you know, as best we can.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: Wow, that's, that's really cool. I had never considered the permafrost thing or the how sensitive the tundra is. It's just wildly different than what I've seen here in, in Idaho and Boise in this area. Yeah, Very, very unique being up there in Alaska. So that, that leads into our next question. So the blm, Alaska Fire Service, you guys do things a little differently than we do in the contiguous U.S. so you've already explained the differences between the terrain in Alaska and how there's very little roads. But what's unique about being a Chena hotshot?
[00:15:57] Speaker C: I would just say the biggest thing for the shot crews up here is just the breadth of what we have to do as a crew. And like I alluded or talked about earlier, just we're often there from the start of a fire to the finish of a fire. And so, you know, we get to do the exciting things and then we also have to do the monotonous things to make sure that it's out. And I'd Say that's the biggest difference is just we're equipped to do all that. And then we're also very self sufficient.
You know, as Emily said, there's no ICP often. So we're out there. We're used to camping. We, we set up our own camp, we cook around a fire and then we'll just get food, fresh food boxes which come with various canned and bagged items just slung into us via helicopter. So I'd say that's probably one of the biggest differences.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And just like being on Chena specifically, or the Midnight Suns for that matter, Alaska Fire Service is a really cool, cool place in that. Like it's not just the hotshot crews here. We have the North Star fire crew has like a feeder crew program across the office that we're sitting in right now. We're in a fire specialist office right now. The jump shack, the smoke jumpers are across the way. There's transportation people, there's the HR folks. There's all sorts of different people go into making up the Alaska Fire Service. And I think that's one really cool part of working here is that if you're around here for more than couple years, you start getting to know people that aren't just on your crew. Like we all share a dining hall so you might see people when you're going in there to get some lunch. And yeah, it's. We're on Fort Wainwright, which is a military base and that means we to go through the gates every day with our credentials. So it is. I had never worked on a base before, so that was new for me. Definitely be aware of your speed limit or how fast you're driving because they're very thorough here.
And yeah, we make camps, as Galen was saying, like when we're out on assignments. And it's pretty crazy what you can make with fiber tape and cardboard and a tarp and just creativity. Like we'll make refrigerators utilizing tundra and permafrost. You know, it's pretty cool. But we do eat a lot of MREs before we get the fresh food boxes or some people eat MREs. I think Galen and I are both pretty.
I feel like you and I kind of get around MREs.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: I haven't had an MRE in years.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: We have a system, so yeah, we try not to. I'm. Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: I just like to say. Yeah. Being part of AFS is like, it's a pretty small organization.
It's pretty tight knit. It's. It's a really great organization to be a Part of, like Emily talked about, there's the crews, there's operations that you think of, but there's a whole host of people in the background that need to do their job to make sure everything is flowing smoothly. So warehouse, all the GIS folks, transportation, we have the small engine shop that deals with all our saws and pumps internally. And so, yeah, it's just, it's a really good organization. There's a lot of, you know, at some point your time on crew, you're gonna, you're probably gonna time out most of us earlier than others, I'd say it's, it's pretty tough on the body at points.
It's tough on your relationships being away. And so AFS or Alaska Fire Service has a really great place that once you're done with those operations, if you're done on the line, there's a lot of other ways you can go which offer maybe a better work life balance. But you're still within the community. And so that's a pretty unique situation that you can work for the same organization, you can still keep your retirement, etc. But you can find something that might be more fitting for that point in your life than just being on crew or, or on the line.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely agree with that statement and pretty cool working here. And yeah, it's China. We have the Midnight Suns as our sister crew and then the North Star Fire crew is the feeder crew that we'll talk about later. But we're. In a lot of ways, China and the Midnight Suns are really similar. We both work hard, we have high standards, and we sometimes differ on tactics ever so slightly. But both crews are hard working and additionally extremely competitive at tug of war. And I will end it with that.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: That's awesome. I know that you're really excited to talk about the North Star crew, so we can go ahead and talk about that now if you want, Emily.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm currently detailed with the North Stars as a squad boss this season, which is really an awesome opportunity. And it's a really cool crew in that people can arrive here with little to no fire experience who are in good shape and maybe they have manual labor time doing manual labor jobs or chainsaw experience, but maybe not come from all sorts of different backgrounds and just be totally immersed into the world of Alaska firefighting, of wildland firefighting, and it's 90 days long. They go out, they do assignments, no cell phones, get work really hard and get the full experience. I say no cell phones because it's, I don't Know, it's part of it. And by the end, those who are really excelling may have an opportunity to go detail with China or the midnight suns. And it's our hopes to have everyone up on step at that hot shot level once they complete the program. Like, all the overhead from the north stars come from China or the midnight sun. So we work really closely with the crews. And as Galen was saying, the north stars is often a starting point for a lot of people at Alaska fire service, Folks that are really high up in management roles, Folks on the crew, jumpers, like, yeah, a lot of people start on the north stars, so I'm really happy to be here with them. And should be good season.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: That's a super cool opportunity. So they get all the training they need, and they're in volunteer status, right. Until they get on a fire. And then they're paid for their time on the fire, right?
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Yeah, they are paid for their time on the fire. They're hired on as what's known as ads within the feds. And their first couple weeks of training are paid at a fixed rate. And then there is an interim. If there's an interim after those first two weeks, when we go fire available, it may be volunteer work. We try to get as much paid project work as we can. We just can't guarantee it. So there's possibility of volunteer hours. And then once they're on the fires, they're getting paid again.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Gotcha. Okay. And Galen, you said that you're lead Sawyer, right?
[00:23:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Okay. Do you. So what are your special duties that you do?
[00:23:45] Speaker C: I mean, in. Up here in Alaska? My special duties are, I guess, just helping out the other saws. Our fuel type is mostly black spruce, and so it's just. They're small. It's a small tree. So it doesn't take it to be a good Sawyer. Up here, it's much more about working with your saw partner than it is about sort of technical tree felling skills. So up here, my role isn't that different. When we go to the lower 48, a lot of my role is sort of mitigating hazard trees before the rest of the crew gets in there. And then additionally, it's just helping the saw boss with whatever saw needs there are, whether that be training or fixing saws or anything that needs to be done to keep the saw teams running smoothly.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Gotcha. I guess I didn't realize that there are so many tiers of a saw team. And there was a saw boss and then there was a lead saw. So that's Interesting. And do you use chainsaws or do you use cross cut saws or all the above?
[00:24:57] Speaker C: Yep. No, we never use cross cut. We use chainsaws. We use silkies. Use silkies. The digs. Yeah. The rest of the. The non saws have silky, little silky hand saws, but we use sort of the standard 460 model still chainsaws. And then we have a couple of other saws if we're sort of augering into bigger trees. But yeah, we use the. It's pretty standard for. For what shot crews use.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: It is pretty funny. When I talk to friends that aren't in Alaska, I think sometimes they think that, oh, you guys must have these huge trees up there.
[00:25:38] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Most of them are like scraggly little black spruce trees.
[00:25:44] Speaker C: Y. Gotcha.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:25:47] Speaker C: So just being part of a saw team, I guess up here is another big difference. You work you very, very closely with your swamper.
You have a saw team, you're with them all day, you get this little bond going, and you're physically much closer. When you're cutting in the lower 48, it seems often, you know, you drop a tree, you limit tree, you cut it up, and then folks come in behind. And in Alaska, you get this flow going where depending on the size of the. Of the tree, you either. Sometimes you can just. You hold it and you pick it up as your sawyer cuts it, and then you can. We call it throwing it because you can sort of throw some of these trees. You try and balance it and run with it, or there's a couple other little techniques, but often you're. You're physically holding the tree and your partner has the chainsaw relatively close to your feet and legs. So there's quite a bit of trust and a good working relationship developed among saw teams. So that's, I guess, another Alaska difference.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: I bet. So I would want to trust someone else with a saw close to my limbs as well.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: And so you say that you do travel outside of Alaska to the lower 48 for fire assignments. So what you said that during a certain part of the year, you're typically in Alaska, and then a certain part of the year, you typically go to the lower 48. Is that correct?
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: It's basically once things start cooling down here and there's really not the need for us to be here, then they'll send us to the lower 48. We'll go down there.
With some exceptions. I mean, when Canada was really, really a lot of fire activity there, we went earlier to Canada, because things were really quiet here. So it depends year to year, but we do head that way. It is once more another cool part of the job of just seeing a lot of different places that maybe I wouldn't necessarily go to. And that includes the parts of the lower 48 as well.
[00:27:56] Speaker C: Yeah. 2019, we didn't go down. Or the crowd on. We didn't go down to the lower 48. We stayed in Alaska the whole season along with a lot of the crews. So we stay for the. Like I said earlier, there's, like, there's very few crews up here, so we're really pretty strongly held by the gac, by aicc, and so they have to release us before we're. You know, we're not nationally available until AICC is comfortable that the Alaska season's ended and they'll cut us loose. And then we basically. Boise. There's a sort of unique relationship where we go to Boise, and that's sort of our second home. And not most crews don't have that. Most crews just go to their duty station. So for us, it's. It's usually sometime what, late July, early August, the rains come in. They come in through the southwest and gets the state wet, and our season's over. But it's. It's, you know, once again, it's a huge state. And so just the fact that it's raining in the interior. 2019, the interior started raining, and we went south of the range into the Matsu Valley. There was a big fire, burned a lot of houses, and then we went down to the Kenai Peninsula. So there's always a chance that we. We don't leave, but generally we do.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: And I imagine when Alaska doesn't need you, there's plenty of work elsewhere for you guys to do.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's typically the point in the season where things are really heating up in the lower 48. So, yeah, we'll take assignments elsewhere once we're released, as Galen mentioned.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: Okay, gotcha. So what do you do to prepare and train to do this job in the weeks leading up to increased fire activity? Because it's very physically demanding job. Do you want to talk a little bit about requirements and training?
[00:29:50] Speaker C: So I guess just personally, before the season starts, you're expected to pt and that's pretty straightforward. I guess people have all sorts of PT regimens. They do. It's sort of tough. You can't really hike out here before the season because we still have a lot of snow on the ground.
So you just try and you know, do the best you can. You can run a lot folks, ski a lot, do a lot of cross country skiing and then just calisthenics, weightlifting, whatever it is that they like to do.
Yeah, that's what people do personally. And then we have our three week training period criticals before we're made available. Or it's like the whole crew comes on, all the seasonals come on. We have three weeks of criticals where we PT twice a day for the first two weeks and then have a lot of classes, a lot of training in the third week. We just PT once a day and we still have some more, you know, just getting everything ship shape. And then once we're available, if we don't have an assignment, we'll do project work and pt. But often it's. It's not that long after we're available that stuff starts.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like come in as in best shape as you can. And one thing that is kind of Alaska specific is how we get our water out to the fire line is in what are called cubies, which are like five gallon boxes of water, basically, and they weigh about 45 pounds. And so we do a lot of hikes at the beginning of the season as a crew where everyone's carrying this cubie on their back. There's a way to put your Pulaski through it so you can situate it on your shoulder back area and hike up the ski hill. And ends up being 90 to 100 pounds of gear, depending on what all you have in your flying gear. Some folks are carrying more things just due to specific duties they may have. But yeah, criticals are basically a period where kind of setting the tone of the crew and seeing if folks did their homework over the off season of exercising a lot. So coming in in a good place and then after that we go fire available and start doing what we do best.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: That's. That's pretty heavy.
That's a lot of stuff to carry around, but it's necessary. So you do need water?
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, sometimes.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Sometimes. Okay. So what, what would you say is the most challenging part of your job?
[00:32:34] Speaker C: I don't know. It's. I guess for me it's probably changed over the years. I'd say mine probably now is the. Is the work life balance and it takes a toll on your relationships. It's like, I bought a house. There's a lot of things I'd like to be doing around my home in the summer that I just don't have time to do. And so sure, I Think the hardest part has shifted from maybe the labor out in the field to the work life balance. And it's tough, I'd say sometimes, yeah, definitely.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Like maintaining relationships, whether it's with a partner, with your family, when you have things going on at home, and then you're like, okay, gotta dip for two weeks and you know what you're doing, but they might not know entirely what you're doing. And that can be pretty hard on any sort of relationship with anyone. So I think that's a good point. I was thinking about this question, and I do think that in some cases, the more challenging parts of the job are also what make it really rewarding and oftentimes entertaining, at least in retrospect. But a lot of times you'll find yourself in situations where things are changing. You have to constantly reevaluate, like, change your tactics. Oh, should I be doing this? This isn't working.
And before we came in here, I was trying to think of a time that really illustrated that. And one that came to mind was I was working the pump, which I mentioned earlier. We use a lot of hose lays, and the pump was pretty far away from the crew. So it was just me out there.
And mechanically things were going well. Or these pumps can be really sassy. So it was going as well as it could go. But I found myself in a moment where my radio and, like, backup radio or my radio died. I thought it might just be the battery, the rechargeable battery. But then my backup system also wasn't working. So I was just complete without communication to the crew. I'm like, well, this isn't good, because I need to tell them they need to communicate with me. Like, communication is really important. And I'm like, who is closest to me right now? And I realized that my friend, my colleague, was working as the lookout that day. So someone that's usually like, high up on some sort of rock outcrop or mountain ridge thing that can look out across the whole fire and keep folks updated as to what's going on. And so I'm like, if I can get a hold of her. So I climbed up on this little ridge nearby, and I was like, I think she's on that rock outcrop across this big valley. And I just screamed as loud as I could her name. I did it a couple times, and then she came out looking like this little ant. And we, in this mixture of, like, charades and yelling, got somehow. It was like a vaudeville sketch, like, got. It conveyed that my radio had died. Like, she's like, radio, like, bad. Okay. And so she tells the crew that I'm out of Como. And she ended up ultimately, like, once she was relieved of her duties, hiked over to me, and we hiked back together. But it was hilarious. And that's just stuff like that happens all the time. Not this specific example, but where you have to just, oh, we don't have a standard operating procedure for this, so let's do what makes sense. And in this case, it was pretty funny. But definitely, it's like, those moments stand out to me, and it's especially. I think the best part, or one of the best parts to me of this job is the people that I work with, and they're totally larger than life, and it's absolutely changed my life for the better. So I'm really grateful to work with my colleagues that I do work with.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. After going through stuff like that together, imagine it brings you together pretty close. Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:54] Speaker C: Yeah. I'd say so. I think probably when I hang out with my fire friends and my non fire friends, we drive them nuts because half or more, three quarters of our conversations are just like, remember when this thing happened? And they're like, we weren't there.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: We were not there.
[00:37:08] Speaker C: It's not that fun. Or we'll make, like, references talking about, like, initial attack, Mayo. And, you know, my friends in Vermont don't know what initial talk, Mayo.
[00:37:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And I have to catch myself. I usually try to not talk about it and then. But then I'll, like, let out a little nugget of information in my mom's, like, what? And I'm like.
She's like, you don't tell me about what you do. Like, you should elaborate. I'm like, well, how much do you want to know? So, yeah, it is a. It is kind of crazy. It's this world that's like, unless you're in it or maybe you know someone who's in it. It's hard to explain without actually being there, which is both cool and also perhaps hard on relationships at times, too. So. Yeah.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Yeah. That's just what happens when you eat, camp, and work with the same people for days on end.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: All right, Galen, what's your favorite part of the job?
[00:38:11] Speaker C: I just say the camaraderie. Just. I mean, I guess it's the same thing there. I mean, I also really like, you know, I like going to national parks and national forests, and if my job is paying me to hike in a national forest sometimes, that's pretty sweet. But I Just say, yeah, yeah, the camaraderie. I'd say probably half the things in my life that I look back on that were like, that was a really great time with folks. Probably happened on the job, and it's pretty special that that's something we get to enjoy. So, yeah, just a lot of. Worked with a lot of really great folks over the years, Had a lot of really fun times, and a lot of. It's just like having the stupidest conversations.
It's like you're in the woods for 14 days together, and stuff gets sort of weird at points, and there's only so many things to talk about before you start talking about really bizarre, odd, totally unrealistic scenarios.
So I'd say that is probably my favorite part. Just being with the folks and just how loony it can get. And, you know, it gets weirder and weirder the longer you're out there. And I just remember the story that one of our other co workers likes to say, and she had an injury. She got pulled off the line. She had to go into town, and she said that the folks were a little bit weird. We were sort of in an especially hard role, and at least for the saws, a hard role physically for the saws, I think, and a hard roll mentally for the folks behind us. Pretty monotonous. And the saws were just getting really, really tired and living off of candy and chocolate milk.
And she. So she went into town, and she came back something like four days later. And, you know, for us, we felt like this is pretty normal. Like, we're getting a little weird, but it's not so bad. And she was like. The contrast is just like. She's like. She showed up, it was raining, and we were just, like. We were just chanting something just over silly things over and over. And she's like, you got to put.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Yeah, she's like, there's been a major change since when I left and when I returned. And actually, same colleague and I joke. We're like, how we share one brain cell. Do you have it today, or do I just, like. I mean, obviously we have to be aware of our surroundings. We have more than one brain cell. But as things. As the season goes on, as roles go on, it's like, humor can be so helpful with combating. I don't know, the camaraderie and humor and just being, like, silly with each other in appropriate circumstances can be really helpful.
[00:40:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, I have a lot of friends. We both have a lot of friends. I'm sure. That have moved past crew. You move on sort of the natural order.
And, you know, I think there's a lot of things they love about their new jobs. It's less demanding on the body, they have more time. But like, pretty much all of them that I've talked to sort of have this common feeling that, like, they really miss, you know, quote unquote, being with the boys. Obviously, we're not all boys, but it's right.
They really. Everyone we talk to or I've talked to that has moved past it, really missed that camaraderie. And so I'd say that's the best part.
[00:41:37] Speaker B: Yeah. As cheesy as it may sound, it really is like a second family. Or for some people, it's like their main family are your crew members. It's like you spend so much time together, you go through highs and lows together, get really close, and it's really special.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And not many other jobs offer that.
[00:41:58] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I think it's also. I mean, while we're talking about it, I think it's a. It's not problematic in and of itself, but I think often it becomes problematic in that you have this group, you're with them all summer, you have the support staff, they're there constantly. You rely on them. And then the off season comes.
A lot of people are just sort of ripped away from that.
And I know that creates some hard times for some folks. So that's, I guess, a flip side of it. Just something to, you know, I think it's being talked about more the mental health of firefighters. But I know the off season because you. You form this cohesive unit and bond with all these folks and you're part of a little community sort of in this. In this natural environment for humans, and then you're done with it and you're just at home and you have no, like, forward moving purpose. And your folks are gone. That. That makes a very hard time for people. And that leads to some issues.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah, there's not like a. It doesn't taper down at the end of the season. It's just like one day you're there, one day everyone's gone. And some of these folks all live in Fairbanks, which is cool, but it's still not the same. Like, oh, we are seeing each other all the time. And then some people live far away from other people. And then. Yeah, it can be really difficult transition, certainly. And you go from being like, oh, these are some of my best friends, to if you get too isolated and I think it is being talked about more. It's like harder to reach out even though these people still care about you greatly and vice versa.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It's jarring to kind of have to re. Enter society after a season ends.
[00:43:51] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:43:52] Speaker C: I think often people, the issue is maybe that they're not entering society well, they're just, you know, they have plenty of money from the season, they don't have to go to work, they're just sort of holing themselves up and that's. It's its own issue, I guess.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. BLM has had.
We've been trying to talk more about mental health and like just helping crews kind of start a conversation about it and not be so apprehensive about seeming weak, I suppose.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Like reaching out when. When you need to. And I think I have noticed a positive shift, which is good. And things like the employee assistance program being talked about more kind of offers like emergency therapy basically in situations that for those who may want it, like during the fire season is hard. But then when you factor in like things going on outside of work that still will keep going regardless of if you're on a roll, like a family emergency can still happen. And so having as many tools available for people, whether that's this EAP or being able to reach out to trusted friend, being able to talk a little more as they feel comfortable is really a good thing to do.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. And just trying to keep an eye out for crew members who might need a little extra help.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely keep an eye on your friends.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
All right. So do you have any kind of advice or words of wisdom for people out there who are interested in doing what you do?
[00:45:35] Speaker C: I would say, I mean, we hear about working hard and staying fit. And I'd say one of the biggest ones for me talking with folks is like, how do you deal mentally with adversity and you know, what's your attitude going to be like? And there's a ton of people, you know, really, really fit people out there and there's a ton of people that can work hard. But you know, there's a lot of parts of this job that suck. And you know, in Alaska, your boots are wet, you don't get a lot of sleep, you're sucking smoke, you're sucking two stroke exhaust, your body hurts, you're not eating the best, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, but how you respond will either make it basically good or make it.
And so, you know, if you can have a good attitude, if you can lean into it Embrace the suck, as we say, and sort of find camaraderie in that situation. Like, the fact of the matter is you're all in that situation together. And that's sort of the nice thing about it is that, like, whatever crappy thing is happening that day is happening to 10 of your buddies. And so if you can empathize with the other people and have a good attitude about it, you're in the long run, you're going to laugh about it and you're going to be able to lean into it and be like, yeah, this is great, even if not in that moment. And if you have a sh. Tty attitude about it and complain about it, the people you're working with are not going to want to work with you because one, like, whatever you're complaining about, they're also going through, so they don't really want to hear it. And two, well, I guess that's really it. And two is you're not helping them out. So it's like, just try and if it's crappy, joke about it being crappy.
You know, lean into it. If you have, you know, something real, a real issue going on, don't not talk about it. But there's. There's ways of doing it without whining or complaining. And so I'd say just how the attitude you have when you face adversity or uncomfortable situations and keeping a good attitude, joking around is probably one of the biggest things I would advocate for.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I was giving this some thought. There's never going to be a right, like, quote unquote, right time to start training or preparing yourself to get on a hotshot crew. And it's likely that your path to getting on a hotshot crew, or if you do get on one, establishing yourself there is not going to be linear and it's not going to be without some adversity. I think that's true for most people, but you will be humbled. That's not a bad thing. And setting goals for yourself and sort of pursuing whatever your standard of excellence is with the tools that you have goes a long ways. And even if they're not really the most glamorous setup, I don't know, I hiked around with paint cans in my backpack or, like my roommates, free weights. When I was first trying to get into this, I really didn't know what I was doing, but I knew I wanted it really bad. So I'm like, well, I'm gonna figure out a way to get there. And it's a really good quality in a hotshot to have grit and be able to get scrappy with the tools that you have and push yourself. And you can really make it a long ways just with that alone and the good attitude. Certainly. Totally agree with Galen on that.
[00:49:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say. And while we all probably have a lot of traits in common, I mean, we want folks, once again, that are fit and hardworking. Like, being outdoors, having, like, an abundance of backgrounds and skill sets is sort of what makes a good crew, you know, function that. So it's not, you know, we don't want, like a monoculture group of folks. We want a diverse group of folks who all have different strengths and weaknesses, I guess, but different strengths so that there's different folks for different tasks, who are good at different tasks and who enjoy different tasks.
And it just makes the whole thing work better, having people from all sorts of backgrounds. And it's just more enjoyable socially and makes for a more well rounded, functioning crew.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: Yeah, well put. I think a good sense of humor is necessary in any situation. Yeah.
[00:50:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:50:09] Speaker A: Good.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Definitely.
Okay.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: In closing, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we might have missed?
[00:50:18] Speaker C: No, applications are closed for this year, but, you know, they'll open in, what, November, I think, for the two crews. So, yeah, if folks are interested out there, you know, apply, apply and. And reach out. That's the other thing.
[00:50:33] Speaker B: Yeah, you gotta reach out.
[00:50:34] Speaker C: You gotta reach out. There's. There's, you know, hundreds of applications, and you gotta set yourself aside or, you know, you got to show that you want to be there.
And so you just. You got to reach out. You got to give a call to the office and just. That doesn't have to be anything special. Just introduce yourself, say you want to be there, say why you want to be there, you know, what you bring to the table.
And then, you know, I think we had one guy one year, and the boss had left the office for the months in the middle of the winter. And he sounds like he'd called every week and no one had picked up because no one was in the office. And he just left a voicemail. And she got back to just like, you know, six voicemails all from him just saying the same thing over and over. So you don't necessarily have to be that persistent. But for sure, if it's something you want, you need to reach out because there's hundreds of other people who also, you know, want it. So you gotta set yourself apart.
[00:51:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for having us.
[00:51:33] Speaker C: Thank you for having us hotshots aren't.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: Known for their public speaking abilities, so hopefully we did okay. But you guys are great.
Yeah.
[00:51:42] Speaker A: And I. I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to talk with me for a bit, so thank.
