Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the episode 37 of Wildfire Matters podcast, the official podcast of the Bureau of Land Management, Fire and Aviation. I'm your host, Caleb Ashby with BLM Fire External Affairs. Each month we take you behind the scenes of wildland fire management, highlighting the people, tools and decisions that protect our public lands and the communities that depend on them. Today's episode is all about intel, the eyes and brains behind our national wildfire response. We're joined by two key leaders who turn raw data into actionable decisions that guide everything from national resource moves to the tactics on the fire line. Okay, so we'll kick it off. Scott, let's start with you. Can you give us a little history on yourself and what your current role is and how you came into it?
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Started fight and fire for BLM in 2001 in Wyoming and really thought that's what I was going to do for a career. I loved it. I thought it was really interesting. I think for the first 16 days that I had started that job, I did something different every day. So I thought that was pretty cool. Continued fire throughout college and then ended up doing a little bit of a change of profession and went into law enforcement for about 10 years and like most of us in Wildfire, couldn't help to come back to my roots and jump back into operations. About 10 years ago, coming to NIC, I didn't really know much about it. I was in a training that happened to be hosted there at NIFC and decided to walk upstairs at lunch and go check out the NIC floor and thought, man, this is really where I'd like to be as I kind of transitioned out of the ops and I never looked back from there. I started at detail that summer in 2020 and got hired at the end of my detail and I've had a blast. I really enjoy the people I work with there, the teamwork, the let's get stuff done, let's get it accomplished, let's do it the right way. Paying attention to detail is something that I can relate to and just a great fit. So had a blast working all three functional areas, moonlighting as a emergency operation coordinator, and had a chance to go help intel a few years ago and dipped my toe in that water and found out it's pretty fun and interesting. I would also say that the NIC intel shop is pretty short staffed and so when an opportunity came up this last fall to transition over there permanently, that seemed like the right move for me. Great leadership, great supervisors. They'll try and get you what you need to do. Your job and help out the entire community. So, man, I just love what I do. And any chance we can get people information or answer questions or get good, you know, turn data and that kind of stuff into usable intelligence, that's a win for the day. So absolutely no looking back for me.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a cool story. Like, I think for so many of us. I'm sure, Rachel, you're probably in the same bows. Like, I started off temporary fire temporarily in the summer, it's like, oh, this, you know, just a temporary fire job and then it turns into like a really cool career because that's the thing for service blm. Like you can get. You start with fire and then it can just turn into something totally. You had no clue that was involved in the fire program somehow. I'm sure, like, nairop's the same way. So, Rachel, why don't you give us the kind of the same rundown how you wound up where you're at now?
[00:03:08] Speaker C: Yeah. So I started fire back in 2003 while I was still in college. I thought it seemed like a challenge. I had friends who were doing it, and like so many folks in the West, I thought I'd just supplement some summer income with fire. And I loved it. And I got my first look at, you know, waking up in the morning looking across a lake and realized that I was doing this for work and I just kind of stayed there.
And I actually started on contract crews and did that for a few years before moving into the forest service in 2006.
And then basically the most of my early years, the first decade or so, I spent on hand Crews, spent about four years on Type 2, Type 2 IA, and then did about five years on ShotCruise and moved on to engines for about another four years after that just to get some experience.
And that was all in Region 6 in Oregon and Southern Oregon. And that's where I'm from is western Oregon. So that's kind of where everything started for me. And then in 2014, there was a strange outreach that came out for a job for the National Technology and Development Program.
And so when I'm not detailed into the IR operations coordinator position, technically I'm working for NTDP.
And what I've done over the last 11 years is work on a variety of national level projects that look at integrating up and coming technologies into the wildland fire environment.
And so I've worked primarily on looking mainly at integrating technologies regarding aviation information data, looking at the delivery of suppressants and retardants, and then Also looking at resource and personnel tracking in real time on the fire line. So I've done a lot of different things. I'm still active, still qualified, still get out on the ground when I can.
And then a few years ago, this program, which the NAIROPS portfolio is part of it, it's called Incident Awareness and Assessment.
And so that covers both our day aircraft and our night aircraft. And that fell in our lap as a project that we were going to work on and vet technology for. And then several of us in that program ended up becoming flight managers for the day aircraft, which perform a slightly different mission than NIROPS does.
And it's one of those things where, you know, what I work on now is stuff that didn't exist when I started in fire. I never could have imagined that I would have this career. I thought I was going to go the route of like, hotshot squad leader, afmo, you know, the kind of standard route. And then I just took a hard right turn. And so now I'm someplace that not only I never could have imagined, but I. I'm helping to develop a national program that's in high demand and then also integrate the new and up and coming technologies into that program, along with other individuals who are very talented and working with folks at NICK to ensure that it's properly dispersed. And yeah, I mean, it's been a fascinating ride, for sure.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, I think that's like. So many people think that the operational role is the only way to come through the FIRE program. And it's like, like what you're doing now, super exciting. Most people have no clue that there is all this. I mean, we're trying to integrate like some crazy technologies, probably a lot of stuff from Department of Defense. We're trying to bring in all different satellite. I mean, there's a lot going on that people just don't get to see. And like, you're at the forefront of that. That's pretty awesome stuff.
[00:06:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And just like you said, I'll highlight some of that in a little bit. We do use, of course, adapted dot technologies and we actually liaise with a DoD satellite. So, yeah, you're spot on.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Nice. Okay, so let's jump back to you real quick, Scott. Let's talk about, like, what the NIC actually is and what you guys do and like, what you do within the nic. Because I think people may understand what a dispatch center is, but I don't think people really understand what the National Interagency Coordination center is, does how they affect the rest of the nation, that kind of thing.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right on the money with that. I remember as a younger firefighter, not really understanding, you know, why this engine from this place is going there and that engine's going that way, or how we have a crew or not a crew until you get exposed to it. You just don't really understand how that works.
So at the National Interagency Coordination center, we're part of a three tiered dispatch system for the United States. There's hundreds of local dispatch centers. What most people would think about as a dispatch that have radios and their flight track and flight following dispatch and resources and getting information into the fires and, and that might be where most people's perception of a dispatch center ends. After that, it goes up to regional geographic areas and those coordination centers.
There's 10 of them in the country and most of them oversee a couple of states or region. And their job is to look out for all those local dispatch centers within their geographic boundaries. So they'll coordinate on a larger level scale of, hey, where do we need our resources? Are they in the right place? Do we need to move them around, pre position them, assign them, they're going to manage that whole geographic area, looking out for all those local centers. And then the third or the top tier of the three tier dispatch system is the nic. And so we kind of do that same type of idea, but on a national scale, making sure everything's balanced out across those geographic areas. We try and stay out of the weeds as far as what they want to do within their areas and let them manage that. But we try and balance things and get resources allocated appropriately to those areas and then let them disperse them where they, where they need them, wherever their priorities are. So what happens is that local center will have a, you know, an order or a need for whatever type of resource on a fire. If they have it in their local geographic area or at their local center, they're able to go ahead and fill that order with that resource and get them to the incident. If they don't have it, they can send it to their, their bordering local dispatch centers. And if they can get a fill within that, that closed kind of area, you know, close response times, they'll fill it there. If they can't get it, then they need to send it up to their geographic coordination center and they'll do that same thing within that whole geographic area. If they can get it, they can go ahead and fill it and try and use the closest forces concept to get people where you need to as quick as you can. Once they can't get it within that geographic area, that's when it comes up to the NIC and we'll, we'll do that same concept, but on a nationwide scale. So we'll still use the closest forces concept. We'll try and get the right resource. If we can't get exactly what they need, we'll try and find something that will help them, you know, get to whatever their objective is with that order. So we'll, we'll work that around the country. We'll try and find the closest thing. If we can't, eventually we'll send it to every geographic in the area, geographic area coordination center in the country. If we can't get it there, it has to get UTF'd, which stands for unable to fill, back to the geographic area. And that would kind of restart that whole cycle. Once Nick has UTF'd one of those orders, it can't come back up. They have to create a new one so that, that cycle just keeps going until we can get what they need or the need for that resources has passed. So it's a little bit of a game of risk, so to speak. You're looking at that map, you're looking at where things are, what's coming up, what's the current expected fire conditions and the weather, and where are resources allocated to make sure everything balances out. To try and meet the priorities for the country. We also work with the international program. So this summer is, in some past summers, we've been helping out Canada, Australia, so we have our international partners and really built some solid relationships with those folks to try and help them out when we can. And that's reciprocal. And they'll help us out as well when they have the capacity to do that.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's cool. In Canada. We just got a bunch of people back from Canada here recently and maybe might be sending more back up. We'll see how it goes.
And so I think part of the thing too, I don't know if you mentioned the planning level or not, but like we're at a planning level four right now. Can you explain how that really affects the national coordination?
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, the planning level is, I think, something that a lot of people really pay attention to. Whether they're in fire or not in fire, we get a lot of questions about that and how that's updated. We use a couple of different things to kind of figure out where that needs to be. It'd be the resources committed. We also consider the number of geographic areas that have full suppression fires within their boundaries, what time of year it is, and let's see here, Teams, resources, the date. Yeah, a couple of those things. So at the lower peel levels, the Nick intel shop is responsible for that kind of 1 and 2 planning level, deciding where we're at. When it goes above that, it goes up to nmac, National Multi Agency Coordinating Group. We'll make a recommendation to them based on what we see, what's coming up. We kind of incorporate the weather. There's significant events coming up, a big lightning bust, high winds, is it, you know, the fuels, are they in prolonged drought conditions as well as the resource allocation and what could be available and what is committed. So all those things go into that recommendation ultimately goes up to nmac and we'll, we'll have that conversation if it needs to be talked about more to figure that out. And if not, they set those PO levels when we're at 3, 4 and 5.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Okay, gotcha. Thank you. That's a excellent explanation of that because I think a lot of people like it's, it's pretty complicated on how you get there and I. That that's the best explanation I've heard so far. Thank you.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: You bet.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: So as far as the aviation resources, I know the NIC does coordination of most of your larger aviation resources, if I'm correct on that one. And so the NIROP falls into that, right? Is that how that works, Rachel?
[00:12:44] Speaker C: Yeah. So NIROPS is a little bit separate from the other aviation resources. And kind of like I mentioned before, it falls under this program called Incident Awareness and Assessment. And so that entire, the day aircraft and the night aircraft sort of fall under a different pool of non operational aviation resources that fall under my programmatic purview, if you want to put it like that. So whereas Scott and the nic, that shop, they're going to be working across the nation to distribute operational resources such as tankers and air attacks and folks like that, helicopters and such, these aircraft that, that we have both within the agency and contract.
I prioritize that. And then our program manager also prioritizes it in the day. So we actually interact with five different states who also have programs like day programs.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: And so we deconflict a lot of that ourselves on the NYROP side at night. That's a federal only mission. So there's really no deconfliction to do. But again, I prioritize the requests that are coming in throughout the day and then what happens on that end is that they request to me I prioritize that, I assign it. But what happens on the NIC side is that they actually receive the formal order and then they will assign that order and in order to get those folks paid and do that kind of thing. So that's more like the formal side for us. But it's really unique in that they don't hand out the assignments to those folks and we sort of hold that close in our program. Scott, does that kind of make sense how I explained it?
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. I think you nailed the head or hit the nail on the head there. But that order comes into the NIC aircraft desk. It's also tracked in the IA hub. That's where your shop sees that order and you guys assign that and prioritize that.
The next morning is when the NIC aircrafter will fill that order retrospective to whether that mission was filled or weather got in the way or mechanical. So we fill that after the fact for resource tracking, payment, all those things that you mentioned. Yeah.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Okay. And so when you say requests come in, are they coming in from the large fire incidents? Are they coming in from the states? Like who's coming in asking you guys to go out and fly these?
[00:15:16] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question. So just to focus on the NYROP side, I have a, basically a management application online that I look at and it's also georeferenced. So when I click on a request that somebody has submitted, I can actually look at the incident on the map. It provides me all of the information that they've inputted for that incident. And at the same time they're also requesting through their local dispatch center just for what Scott was talking about. And so the incidents that are requesting are primarily large incidents. The nairops focus number one priority is complex incident management team fires.
So we often service other fires, smaller fires. But our focus especially this time of year at PL4 and 5 is going to be complex incident management teams. That's an automatic qualification for nyrops and that is something that people don't always quite understand.
And so on that front, because NYROPS is a federal only mission, we don't deconstruct conflict with the states at night. We just pick up state requests as well. So if there's a state team on a fire or a federal team on a fire, we will do our best to pick, pick that fire up and get them the information that they need for their maps. Because we're a team, we're all in this together and then we will pick up other fires. As I mentioned, we do focus on Large fires. So that's going to be 300 acres in grass and brush, 100 acres in timber. So they need to meet that qualification in order to receive nyrops or, you know, it could be something that looks like it's going to go that direction, but maybe it has real priorities, values at risk or, you know, basically life and property, that kind of thing. So when we look at stuff that doesn't have a team on it, we're really going to take the politics, the need into consideration when we have a very, very limited resource pool for night flying.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So that's. Yeah. And when you're talking about your day flying, what, what is that part of it? You say you got your day a craft and your night aircraft. What are the day aircraft?
[00:17:17] Speaker C: Sorry, yeah, I'm so glad you're asking about it because I know, I know originally you wanted to focus on Nairox, but. Excuse me, it's really hard to understand the full program without understanding what our day missions do as well. And that's a relatively new portion of the program that's only really been around for a few years. A lot of people are probably familiar with other programs we've had in the past, such as the Firewatch Cobra helicopters. We had the DRTI or known as the Dirty bird. So those provide various types of different imaging, live feed, intel. So they were previous iterations of this program, but now we have the fixed wing flying at night for nairops. And then we also have two day aircraft and what they fly is a much more dynamic type mission, which is meant for situational awareness rather than strictly for mapping products.
So they may be slightly less specific because what they're doing is mapping or recording videos or capturing images in real time in the air and then sending that information directly to the requester from the air. Oh, wow. So whereas nyrops, it comes down to the ground, it gets interpreted, excuse me, interpreted by an IR interpreter and mapped and the products get created and then the situation unit leader on a fire goes into the website, picks up that product and uses it for their morning briefings and whatever other briefings they have. Our day shifts are really meant to respond to smaller fires, emerging fires, anything where somebody needs a product pretty much right away. Our primary focus during the day is actually detection. So a lot of those, a lot of the time when there's high level of, you know, high, high, high lightning activity level, those folks are going to be flying large grids and they're going to be sending size up, not necessarily over the radio, but they're gonna be using an ArcGIS online format to send that size up in so that we're not clogging up the radio because sometimes we have quite a few detections and that way they can get them in near real time and act on them as appropriate. And so that's our focus during the day, with smaller fire support then being a secondary focus and large fire support with the day aircraft as able. A lot of time this time of year, those folks in the day aircraft are maxing out their duty day and so they just can't pick everything up because it's extremely, it's just an extremely high demand. And the day side is where there's also five states who are currently, you know, currently active in their own day programs. And because we fly nationally, you know, we don't want to be flying the same fires. And so we have set it up within the program and with those five states, you know, everybody's playing really well together.
Everybody deconflicts and communicates really well. And that's a really awesome, unique thing about this IAA community is that we, we really do have really good relationships with the states and the other federal entity involved, which is the bia.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: And so, yeah, that's an ongoing discussion every single day via chat, text, phone, you know, whatever it is to make sure that people are getting what they need in the right order from the right entity.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Very good. That's super interesting. I had no clue that you guys were involved on like the day side of things. Everything I've heard, I've heard of the Dirty Bird and everything like that. And I never knew exactly what the heck it was.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: But that's.
[00:20:57] Speaker C: Yeah. And, and Dr. TI was a. Yeah, DRTI was a very unique program in and of itself. That was also. That ended a couple years ago. And it, it was based on an agreement with, I believe a Calgary aircraft or National GU aircraft. And so that expired and we just can't meet the needs of that anymore. So this is the updated version.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Okay, very cool. All right, so that's really interesting stuff. So explain to me. So when you guys, how do you get the data from the aircraft down into like, like Scott's hand? Well, so does it go into your shop, Scott too, or. Let's go to like the ICs or where does it go to like, how does it get disseminated? I guess.
[00:21:38] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. And so I want to make this as comprehensive and straightforward as possible. So for nirops, our fixed wing aircraft, we have two agency and one contract that fly at night, they generally try to get off the ground right around dusk. They can take off before you can get IR data. During the day, the contrast just isn't as sharp on the landscape.
So they try to get everything in full dark, if that's possible. They have an IR technician with them in the back of the aircraft who is actually chatting with our IR interpreters who work through the night. And they're on the ground and they chat with them in real time from the aircraft. All the aircraft, excuse me, all the aircraft are equipped with Starlink as of spring of this year, which is an absolute game changer as far as getting the speed at which we can transmit the data and it can be received and processed. So that's a huge game changer. It used to be that we had some, some other systems that were just slower based on the technologies that were available, or sometimes you would have to land and transmit the data if you just didn't have enough bandwidth from the air.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:23:00] Speaker C: So now these folks are flying. They fly a fire and they fly it in what we call mowing the grass pattern, which I'm making a hand gesture right now that nobody can see but think about mowing the grass in a zigzag across a fire. And so they can pick up, with a line scanner, a very wide lens, they can pick up about 300,000. Let me double check this number so that I'm not giving the wrong one. Yeah. So they can pick up about 300,000 acres or more per hour of area. And so they really cover a lot of ground.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: That's a huge swath.
[00:23:41] Speaker C: Yeah. And so that's why we cover large fires with these aircraft, is because our day aircraft, it's a totally different sensor system, they cannot cover that type of area because they are literally hand mapping that during the day. So at night they do this, they get the imaging. The imaging gets transmitted by the IR technician down to the ground and essentially gets received in an FTP site. And the IR interpreters on the ground, they go in, they retrieve that imagery, they interpret it so they know what to look for in that imagery. Because there's a lot of variability in what's being picked up and whether is this a hot thing, is it a hot rock, is it a house, a roof or whatever. So they're really good at looking at that stuff and the different gradients of the thermal imagery, ensuring that they can get a good detailed mapping product out. So they create that product, they upload it back to the FTP. The situation unit leader from the team can go in and pull that out sometime prior to the 6am operational briefing. Got you. So yeah, everybody works through the night. The aircraft, I assign the aircraft at about 3:30 in the afternoon and then from there they just kind of prep for their mission and go forth.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: Interesting. That is super cool. I mean coming from like I started on Fire in 2001 too and like, like our ability to stay connected now is like so like amazing. And I'm sure it's just the same way. It's like, you know, even had cell phones when I started and like so. And now you're, you got Starlink on everything. I mean it's pretty crazy how far we've come. So. So when you get that data, the FTP, it goes to an FTP somewhere. Scott, are you, do you have people in the NIC that's looking at that data too along with the incidents or is that go into like your planning? Like we're like say so say you can see something that's obviously very active. It's going to need a lot of resources. So are you guys looking at that saying okay, we need to start moving some stuff around that way or is that strictly different from like the IC saying we need more stuff or like how does that work on your shop?
[00:25:43] Speaker B: It all depends. Everybody kind of uses different data sources and like you both said, there's so many new things out there that weren't there, you know, a decade or two ago or even handful of years. So we get the reports from Rachel's shop and so a lot of times we'll be looking at those throughout the night and early in the morning kind of getting ready to give any updates that may not come in on 209s from the fires to be able to pass that on to Nick management and Mac just to keep their situational awareness up there. So we have access to those. And yeah, it's so nice to be able to get a good acreage on a fire when you are kind of scratching your head of hey, was there a data entry error on this or is this a legitimate number? Did this thing really shrink or as we say a reduction in acreage due to more accurate mapping.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Or did it really take off and go maybe throughout the night or since they did that fire report earlier or that evening previous. So yeah, we're using it. I'm sure the ICs and all the folks local dispatches are. It's just instrumental in them making good solid decisions out there.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's the crazy thing, like how accurate, like for mapping, like if you're using IR to see where a fire parameter is. I mean, it's, it's so amazingly accurate. I did some stuff with the drone program before and we'd have the things and of course there's small, small acreage and we were doing stuff, but it's like you could just trace a line out within a few feet and it's so accurate. And then you're doing this in 300, 300,000 acre swaths. That's pretty incredible that we've got that far. I mean. Yeah, it's nuts. And then you talk about like all the systems that we have now. So we've got.
I was talking with one of our meteorologists, Jim, and he was showing us some of the programs that you guys have now to look at like your lightning and so many things. It's like we are so connected on stuff like that. So why don't you dive in that a little more to where I like how you can look at like how weather really influences how we're moving resources around the nation.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you mind if I bounce back real quick?
[00:27:37] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: The IIA program is just blown up. Right. There's a high demand and it's grown incredibly fast. I've had the opportunity to work with IR for the last 15 to 20 years. And one thing I always thought was interesting is if you take that untrained eye and have them try interpret it, they can't do it. It takes some time behind that map and looking at that, I was curious, when you bring on a new interpreter, how long do you think it takes for them to kind of train that eye, know what to look for and be able to confidently and efficiently be able to interpret that data that comes in? And how would someone get started in that in your shop?
[00:28:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question. And definitely something that people don't even realize exists. Like, I didn't know it existed until I started working in this program because it's absolutely like the kind of thankless, invisible job that only, you know, situation unit leaders know about because they're the ones that deal with it. And for those of us in operations, we're just like, give me my map.
Just however it gets created, I just need a map. And so we don't put a lot of thought into that. And so IR interpreting is a skill that is taught. And we actually have an IR interpreter course, an NWCG course that is currently getting revamped and the taskbook is getting revamped. And this is a very small group of people within multiple agencies. And we also bring in ads, and we also bring in cooperators who have this qual.
There's several people from California who we bring in working for the state because it's just such a small group of folks.
And so one, you have to have great GIS skills, not just the interpretation, you have to be solid gis. So most of these people, there's cartographers, there's fuels folks, there's all kinds of folks who have a reason to have really solid GIS skills. That's probably key because you're mapping in that program and then, yeah, having an eye for that. And especially the nuances of the different line scanners, that the different sensors, they produce slightly different variances in their, you know, thermal imaging outputs. And so having an understanding of that as an IR interpreter, when you're seeing, you know, maybe one aircraft flies a fire that isn't doing too much one night and it produces a certain image that they're interpreting the next night, one of the other aircraft, you know, might be flying it with a different type of sensor that may have just a slight variability. Not, it's not that it's like better or worse. It just is a different sensor with a little bit different imaging. And so they have to understand like, okay, did that hotspot that I'm seeing here, did that, did that actually get smaller? Did it grow? Or am I looking at this? You know, it's actually stayed the same size because it's just a different sensor that's giving me a slightly different output. So there's a lot of, a lot of really nuanced information. And as far as, you know, getting involved in the program, I definitely have folks who reach out to me who, you know, are looking to become GIS specialists on teams and maybe they're just not having a lot of luck going that route. And so they think, well, okay, how about I, you know, get into the IR interpretation realm. And so I'm happy to steer people in that direction because we need more folks, we need to get them trained up, especially as people are leaving and retiring and everything that's going on is, you know, cuts into the workforce.
And so, yeah, if somebody's out there and you're interested in IR interpretation and you have some mad GIS skills, we would love to get you involved. And yeah, it's just one course and I'd say timeline.
We like folks to have probably a couple of training roles, a couple of 14 day training roles, you know, as long as you already need to have the basic skills, but as long as you have that, then we pair folks up with somebody who's been in the program for a while and just have them do a couple 14 day roles with that individual assisting them. And then yeah, usually we're, we're pretty able to onboard people as fully trained, fully qualified after that.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: Very nice. So is that as you guys, I mean as our fire seasons keep getting, we start earlier and keep going longer. It's like we're coming into this like it's a fire year. Now are you guys, are your contracts set to come on like at a certain date? Are those expanding? I mean, are, are you guys have stuff available like throughout the year?
[00:32:24] Speaker C: Yeah, so they are on, they are on exclusive use contracts, which I can't talk too much about, but we have both of our day aircraft are contract aircraft and I can't remember the exact length of the contract right off the top of my head, but generally we have most aircraft coming on May or early June and staying on probably through mid November or late November.
So that's kind of the core of the exclusive use contract.
Only one of our night aircraft is contract. Our other two are our agency. And so there's some different variability with those. But typically in the off season, such like this year there was some stuff going on in Region 8 in the southeast and then some stuff going on in Minnesota. And so I know that we brought on at least one of our aircraft, I think maybe two, maybe one day and one night on call when needed. So we have that option as well. So yeah, definitely not fully staffed with the aircraft throughout the year. We also just can't do that personnel wise because we don't have any dedicated personnel in this program.
Everybody is a fill or a detailer or somebody who just is helpful and really likes to do this work. We're currently borrowing somebody from the aircraft desk at Nick to be one of our day flight managers and he's doing an amazing job and everybody that steps up and steps in is, you know, they're dedicated to this work. They love the program and they're, they're doing it because they're, you know, they're really into it and they're making some money and you know, it's a pretty cool program. So. But yeah, we don't have any dedicated personnel, so we, we have to cobble.
[00:34:07] Speaker A: It together such a, like, it sounds like such a complex workflow and everything and it's like you don't have dedicated people to 100% of the time. That's surprising.
[00:34:16] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that's a good note that there's a lot of especially aircraft programs like that that just. They don't have the dedicated personnel. And so it's the same people keep coming back and taking time out of their schedule to support those programs year after year.
[00:34:30] Speaker A: But I guess that gives the opportunity, if you're interested in it, you could jump in and help out. Or you can.
[00:34:34] Speaker C: Yeah. It's not full time zones. Definitely.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: There's some upsides, I guess, to it. Awesome.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: That would amaze everyone, though, is that exact experience is how Wildfire works in general.
So many people, their day job is not fighting fire and to pitch in and help out as you can and offer your experience and expertise and skills.
It's the whole program that runs that way. But it is amazing when you have this program that's high demand and kind of new and on the edge, and you're still relying on those folks to pitch in.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: So I think that's cool. I think that's one of the really neat things about just really land management. Whether Forest service doi, so many of the people that support fire are not dedicated, 100% fire people. They're your archaeologists, they're your hydrologists. They're the people tied in with flight things and different things. Like. And they're taking their time out of their normal day job to come and support fires in different ways. And like, the. The fire program wouldn't be able to operate without those people. Like I said, like, you cannot go and do your job without these people filling in, taking time out or whatever. Their normal job is to go and help out on the flight desk or whatever it is. Same way with the nick. Same way you've got people coming in, it's like, oh, I've got some availability. I can jump in and do that. And I mean, I think it's one of the coolest things about fire is like, there is a lot of flexibility to jump into these different roles. You learn something and producing your new career that you had no idea was there. And you're getting to do some really neat stuff. So. Yeah, that's excellent.
All right, so let's jump into a little more. Back into the nick side of things a little more. So, like you explained earlier, Scott, you've got the. The gags that are putting in requests for information. Like, how do you at the NIC try to play everybody's got needs. And it's like, how do you decide who's got the most important need when you got stuff coming from the GAC up to the nic.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah, really, it's a. It's constant flow of information and data that is turned into intelligence right at the, at the different intel shops, whether they're your local person entering, you know, sit 209 data or up to the geographic area and then the nic. But all that flow of information starts on the ground. And I didn't realize this. I always thought it was kind of a pain when I was icing fires of why do I have to have this report? And by this time I am busy, I'm trying to get this thing done. And perspective changes everything, right? You change the facts, you change the answers, or vice versa. But those folks on the ground, we rely on them to get that fire report in afternoon or evening. And that goes into the dispatch. If it doesn't have a team on it and they're entering that 209 information form, ultimately, ultimately it's the IC's responsibility to get that report in. If you have a team on it, it's usually the situation unit leader that is filling out that form and getting that data submitted. Generally the gacs intel shops are looking at those and they're almost building some version of the National Situation Report within their gac. So they're prioritizing those local incidents and trying to figure out where they need to allocate the resources within their area.
Once they go through the GACs, they're funneled all up to NIC. And so we're going to go through every 209 that comes in every day. In California, they submit twice a day at 6 in the morning and 6 at night. So it's a constant flow of information.
PL3 and above, the intel shop is really operating 24 hours a day.
And so day shift is coming on between three and four in the morning usually. And they start their day off with going through and reviewing what the night shift did. As far as building the IMSR draft.
We'll pay particular attention to anything that seems just kind of out of place or new incidents or final incidents or incidents that maybe have kind of been growing and now meeting large fire criteria. So we're going through all that stuff. We're tracking the IMTs, incident management teams, the resources assigned, the engines and helicopters and crews, and keeping an eye, a keen eye on the values at risk that helps us to really prioritize the fires. As we know life and safety is the ultimate priority. But then there's some other very important things, whether that's structures or homes or communities Power, you know, energy infrastructure, communication infrastructure, threatened endangered species, any of those types of things. So we go through those 209s line by line. That can get a little tedious, you know, so night shift's probably happy to be done by the end of the night and we're so thankful for them. But yeah, you really gotta be paying attention to detail and have a desire to give good information, put it together. Otherwise things slip by pretty quick. So we do our final review on that. At about six in the morning it goes off for one more set of eyes before it's finalized and posted up on the NIC website. And as soon as that happens we are getting the draft set up and start to track the team movement. We'll listen to a call with all the geographic areas in the morning, mid morning. That's followed up with NMAC meetings, depending on what cadence they're at based on the PL levels or a specific need to meet more often. And that system just repeats itself all day long, all summer long. So yeah, we just really rely on those folks on the ground to get us good information and it will help you on your fire.
When the local center has multiple fires and they're trying to send which one gets the resources or at the GAC level, hey, now what do we send it to? What's the priority? And then at the national level. So yeah, it really is important. There's a lot of people that are looking for that information, as you well know. And you guys have a high demand for too. So yeah, keeping an eye on it.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: I think like with the IMSR for, you know, somebody that works in external affairs, we get so many calls about it. It's like, what's going on with this fire? Here's. Go to the website, the CIT report imsr, it's like, oh, nobody. Like what is this? This has got everything. I was like, yeah, this is exactly what's going on. It's the information that everybody in the nation's running off of. And you guys put that together and put it out every day. And it's the most current up to date information. I know we get calls from reporters all the time asking about it. Okay. And then they're trying to interpret it and everything. And then you guys got a glossary on how to interpret the IMSNR and everything. And it's just like it's one stop shopping for up to date fire information.
[00:40:33] Speaker B: I think there's some unique things about the imsr. It's been around for a long time, obviously having that structured and there's criteria about how you would be in the report, how you would not be where you're going to be. So it kind of gives that data set that you can compare year after year, decade after decades, which can kind of give you an idea of, hey, where are we compared to last year or that slow season or that busy season?
So it really, it's that kind of consistent thing you can go to if you know nothing else to say. How does this compare and where is it as far as a priority? So I think it's really useful from that, from that lens. The other thing that I thought was pretty interesting was we started kind of keeping track of how many hits or visits the IMSR got. And I want to say it was over a million hits here this last year. But that's only tracking people that go to the page and click on the link. If you're accessing via somebody else's link to the IMSR page or a favorite, it's not tracking that.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: Oh, interesting.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: So it's getting used constantly. Insurance adjusters, insurance companies are looking at that, following that, trying to figure that stuff out. So it gets a lot of traffic and, you know, does it look maybe like it's a little bit of an old document? Sure, it's been around for a long time. But I think that consistency is also important as we continue to grow and improve and offer better things. But that data set and how that works I think is always going to be a foundation that we need to incorporate into whatever we continue with down the road.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That ties into kind of the next question is like, what do you see as the future of the NIC as far as like the imsr, the new technologies that you guys are starting to lean into and use, and it's being able to push that information out to everybody else. Like, what do you.
What's the new and exciting thing coming out there?
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah, there's so much man coming from just a little firefighter and running chainsaws and whatnot to where we are now. This isn't where I thought I would be, but here I am and I really enjoy it. But some of the tools that we're starting to use quite a bit. And not just our shop, but a lot of them are Power Automate and trying to.
We've started works with some different vendors and exploring, you know, AI and how we can incorporate that.
We've just got to teach ourselves. Though we don't have a network engineer or a programmer in our shop, so it's a couple of people back there The National Intelligence Coordinator, Megan Kepper and myself that are self taught. Here we go. We're going to make this flow and put this in here and we're going to use this new application and like I said, we're shorthanded, we're strapped for time. We have lives outside of it. So anything we can incorporate to try and make it more efficient, more accurate, more timely, we're trying to embrace that. It's a whole new world out there. But yeah, hopefully we're doing a good job and we're always looking for ways to improve and bring in that new technology.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think you guys are, you guys are always like the most solid source of information we have available to us. And like I know us in external affairs, we're hitting you guys up all the time like what's going on here? So I mean it's, yeah, it really is a fantastic role resource, the IMSR and everything that you guys put out. Yeah, it's great stuff. And same question with you Rachel. Like where do you see like your program going specifically because you guys, there's a huge need for you guys. You don't have enough people. We need more people. But like what do you see like as the next steps for your program?
[00:43:48] Speaker C: Yeah, good question and one that I'm not even sure that I can fully answer because it has been evolving so quickly.
When I started sort of tentatively working with the program just about three years ago, sort of in a more of a research capacity, we were still using a different kind of satcom where you know, we couldn't really send videos in real time. And now we're sending everything in real time. We're moving into using a lot of, you know, what Scott was just talking about like the Power Automate again.
I wish I could say that I'm really up on that stuff and that I understand it fully. We do have a few folks within the interagency who we really, really rely on to help us build our management applications.
And that helps us integrate better with our state, you know, our state partners. And so what we're really trying to move towards in the next few years and I've even had, you know, there's two states right now. One is in the process of building their own program and they're going to get into the game here probably the of this year. And then we have another state who just reached out a couple of weeks ago to get information about getting their own program started. And so as the landscape of iaa, you know, and nairops becomes more complex and More in demand. And we really, really have to look at prioritization, which I'll tell you, I pull up the IMSR when I don't, you know, when I have limited resources and I know I can't get everything, I'm looking at the IMSR to see, you know, to base that decision in our national priorities.
So that's what we're anchored in. But as far as the future of the program, we're really trying to work on those deconfliction platforms.
We're moving forward in the what I would call the dual use realm with our aerial supervision. So there are helicopter coordinator platforms and there are air tactical group supervisor platforms that are moving into the censored realm where they will be dual use.
I can't speak to that very in depth, but that's an area that the program is assisting with. Obviously we don't, you know, run the ATGS program. We don't run, you know, any of the helicopter coordinator stuff. But, you know, our program manager is working with those folks because we're the ones that understand how to utilize the sensors in the aircraft and what that might look like. And just as a side note, that's been, you know, in a way, sort of pioneered by our Firewatch 51 aircraft down out of Fox Field in Southern California.
They've been a night air attack and a day IAA platform for several years.
[00:46:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:46:42] Speaker C: So that's not exactly what these aircraft are gonna look like because they'll really be like air attacks and helicopter coordinators using the sensor to see through the smoke to, you know, have better, you know, visualization of the fire on scene.
And as far as moving that side forward, I think that's going to take some time. And I know that, you know, part of that goal is sort of incrementally stepping up to have a lot of those aircraft have that capability and then, you know, having discussions about what does it look like to have a true dual use aircraft where you might have aerial supervision? Can you switch back and forth between those different mission sets or do you need to stay dedicated to one?
What does that look like right now? They're definitely separated. You don't perform both at the same time. You're an air attack or you're doing IAA even in those aircraft. So much beyond that I can't really speak to because it's such a new thing and that's not necessarily within my personal purview.
And then within NIROPS and our day IAA platforms, I think one of our biggest challenges is just Meeting demand.
And so looking at how we can continue to meet demand or how we can change and adapt the program to allow states, you know, to kind of help states develop as much as they can so that some of that stuff is taken off of our plate. And I think a lot, you know, a lot of them have been around for a long time. Colorado, Washington, they've had long standing programs. California has had a long standing program. So they're already extremely competent in this arena. And then just helping those states develop even more, the newer ones, so that maybe we can kind of back off in that respect and give them some of the work and just pick up the rest of the stuff. And there's a lot of nuance to that, but that's sort of the. The immediate outlook for the program.
[00:48:46] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:48:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: Interesting. So things are moving the right way. It's just, I guess with all evolving technologies, you never know exactly what it's going to look like, but you just have to be kind of adaptable and see what's going to work.
[00:48:58] Speaker C: Yeah. The technologies change so quickly that, you know, and we have to go through a testing process and an implementation process and anything that we put in those aircraft, you know, it's costly and we don't want to. We don't want to waste money. And so, you know, there's a lot of vetting that has to go into that. So, yeah, it's. It's hit or miss for sure.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: I can't imagine what those sensors cost, but I know they're probably. You're not going to find those on the shelf anywhere.
[00:49:21] Speaker C: No.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Excellent. Okay, cool. Well, I think we're getting pretty close to wrapping up here and I kind of want to start a new thing with. Because Wildland Fire is such a huge program, totally unique. And like you, both of you started an operational cruise doing stuff right out on the line. I'm going to start doing is like, tell us your most unique. Could be the scariest or most like the coolest story you have from on the Fireline somewhere, like early on in your career or just up till now, like, what's the most unique, cool thing that you never thought you were going to get to experience as somebody in the Wildland Fire program?
I'll start with you, Scott, give you guys a couple minutes to think about it. You got something, Scott? Seems like you do.
[00:50:00] Speaker B: Oh, man.
Think a little bit.
That's a tough question to answer because I think probably like so many of us, you just have so many cool opportunities and to just say that's the one. Gosh, I don't know. A lot of cool places, A lot of just, you know, really hard and challenging shifts. Being out on those, you know, 24, 36 hour shifts and realizing, holy cow, we have not just been sitting around, we've been grinding. Yeah. And you're exhausted and getting that break. But at the same time, that incorporates so many good relationships and memories and teamwork and camaraderie and all those things that I think probably draws us into fire when we first start.
So all those things are just so cool. But I do remember one. It was up on Lake Chelan, Gosh, I don't know, 20 years ago, but it was at the far end of the lake and there was a fly in assignment and just hanging out over those milky waters up in the Pacific Northwest. Just blue, perfect glacial water. Wow. It was always a really memorable. Good folks on that assignment and being able to see that country and look out the door of a helicopter and be flying at the same altitude as the mountain goats standing there on the side of the mountain, that's. That's pretty fun. Pretty unique.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: If I had to say one. It's just the people and those shifts where you come together and grow together when you work hard.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Yeah, you're spot on. I think the sense of community that is built within wildland fire and on crews and stuff is second to none. It's hard to find that in really any other career.
[00:51:26] Speaker B: It's different too at Nick. Everyone's right there. At the end of the shift, you go home, you're with your family or friends or your other commitments, versus when you're out there in that operational landscape, you sleep together, you eat together, you work together. All but a couple hands. A couple, you know, handful of days out of a whole season.
[00:51:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:46] Speaker B: So you really do.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:48] Speaker B: You become a family.
[00:51:49] Speaker A: You form some awesome bonds, for sure. Yeah. Like lifelong bonds.
[00:51:52] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: Yeah. What about you, Rachel?
[00:51:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, Scott pretty much outlined the draw for all of us. I mean, I don't know, you know, any ground person out there is like, they already know what it's about, you know, and like, I don't think I need to say anything more on that. Yeah, I mean, my first love in fire was hand cruise and, you know, a hotshot cruise, you know, that's still probably my favorite part.
And for me, I recognize that that part of my career is kind of done now and, you know, that's fine. You move and you change and.
Yeah, I mean, kind of like I mentioned in the beginning, you know, the first time that I was in a spike camp way back when I was a little baby firefighter, and it was, like, cloudy and raining for three days, and then, like, it cleared off, and I was like, oh, wow, this is pretty cool that I get to do this. And I still get that feeling when, you know, it's like, now it's not about, like, an amazing vista necessarily, because I'm kind of staring at a computer a lot of the time, but when I do get to go flight manage with our day aircraft, that's still something that, like, I never thought I would be in aviation. I never. I always imagined myself as just being this, you know, ground pounder and doing whatever. And it's like, here I am doing this thing that I totally never expected to do, and, you know, seeing things that I never expected to see. And one thing that pops into mind was last year when Oregon and the Cascades just got lit up about this time last year, and we were flying over Crater Lake every day. And I have a picture out the window of the lake, and I. You know, in the picture, there's 14 different smoke columns.
[00:53:41] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:53:42] Speaker C: Just little fires. And you know, what's gonna come next, you know, and you just get that feeling like, yep, it's here.
And we did have the opportunity to fly over one of the extremely large fires in eastern Oregon last year as it was eating up about 100,000 acres. And I think we started off at about 17,000ft, and the column was punching up so fast. We were doing circles around the column to map the fire, and it was punching up so fast that we ended at 24,000.
[00:54:15] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:54:16] Speaker C: Because it was just, you know, you're looking at it, looking out the window at this thing, and it's just black and orange in the center.
And to see a column from that viewpoint was something I didn't think I was gonna get to do. And you're so close to it, and it was just really kind of this cool, visceral experience.
And, you know, you've got the sensor there so you can see through the smoke all the way down to the ground. You know what those guys are going through.
And that sensor operator is just, like, mapping as fast as he can because he can't even keep up with how fast the fire's moving. So that was kind of a new and different experience, just getting to see it from that side and getting to be part of that and know that somebody's going to get this map and this video and these images, and it's going to help inform their decision that's wild.
That's a cool, unique experience for me.
[00:55:13] Speaker A: Super cool. Yeah. That is awesome.
Awesome. Okay, well, we're going to wrap things up now, I think. Just first off, I just want to say thank you to both of you. I know you're both super busy this time of year. You're, like, slammed. You guys took time to come out and do this, so I really, really appreciate this. I know this is gonna just. So many people are interested in this, the work that you guys do, and it's just gonna be a cool way to tell it to everybody. So really appreciate that. To close out final thoughts. Let's see. Thank you so much to Scott Mayer and Rachel Hanson for joining us today. And thank you to all who listen to Wildfire Matters. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe and share it with anyone interested learning more about wildland fire and public land management. We'll see you next time. Thank you.