Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Fire Matters, the podcast that covers all aspects of wildland fire management for the Bureau of Land Management or BLM. We talk with the people who help manage and protect our public land s many dedicating their lives to the profession.
Last year we left you with episode 22. We were going to have the coordinator for the emergency stabilization program on at next and kind of things got away from us and so we were on a hiatus for a couple of months, but we're back for another year and happy to be back our third year.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we were just talking about that. Three years going on year three. So that's awesome. So excited.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: So we'll have Jake Ferguson from the emergency stabilization program on next time with this seed manage or seed house.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: National seed warehouse manager Brandon Brown.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Thank you. But today we are focusing on the joint fire science program and happy to have with us Jennifer and I, happy to have with us Colleen Haskell and Karen Dante Wood, both with the program. Colleen is program manager and Karen is the technology transfer specialist for the program.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Welcome, ladies.
[00:01:26] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:01:27] Speaker D: Thanks for having.
[00:01:28] Speaker C: Yeah, we're going to kick off the new year.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great way to kick off the new year with science.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: I love it. Yeah. Our next two ones are science and stuff based. It's awesome to learn something new.
[00:01:38] Speaker C: Excellent.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So first off, before we get started, we want to learn a little bit about yourselves and how you got into the job that you're doing now. So, Colleen, let's kick it off with you.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: Okay. Well, I'm really glad to be back here, I should say. I was with the joint fire science program several years ago in the same role that Karen's in now as a tech transfer specialist. And I'm a little bit more of a non traditional person in our program office in that I'm not a researcher, I'm not an academic scientist, but I am a scientist by trade as a meteorologist. So for most of my career, I worked for NoA as an incident meteorologist and I met going to the field. And so I don't have any published work, but I feel like what I bring to the joint fire science program is that connection to the fire managers. And this is really new for me and it's really exciting to be back in this capacity working with the program.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: How about you, Karen?
[00:02:43] Speaker D: Sure. So my path, similar to Colleen's, is a bit different to the fire science world. So I went the pre med route in college and thought I was going to study bones and humans and decided my last year of college that I did not want to do that and fell in love with a botany class and ecology earlier, much to my parents'dismay, that all ended up working out, but fell in love with the climate change aspects related to seeds and did some work in the Washington, DC area. That's where I'm from. So I did some work bridging climate change science and policy with National Wildlife Federation, the EPA, and then with the Forest Service and really focused at least ten or so years working on the hill and really trying to bring scientists and managers to the table to talk about climate change and science. And as you can imagine, fire is a very big component of a changing climate. And so when I was ready to make a leap and find something else, it was nice to come back to the Boise, Idaho area. This is where my husband's from. We have some family here, and I was able to find something with the Joint fire science program, bridging both my love for science, some policy, as well as communications.
[00:03:56] Speaker C: We're happy to have you here.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: And Jennifer has worked with you on fire. Sign.
[00:04:00] Speaker D: Yes, I know. I love this. It's such a small world.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I've worked with both of you guys a little bit in different aspects. It's been great.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: So tell us a little bit more about what the joint fire science program is and how it's structured. Like, what is it that you do?
[00:04:18] Speaker C: So joint fire science program has been in business, we'll call it, for 25 years now, a little over 25 years. And after the national fire plan came into play, the joint part means that we are a truly interagency body. We represent all of the different bureaus of the DOI and the US Forest Service. So the way it's structured is in our program office that's located here at NFC in Boise, Karen and myself. And then we have a program analyst, and then we have a virtual employee who's our science advisor. So in all, we have four employees. I'm really proud to say that all of us are red carded, fire going individuals that support management. So that's part of the structure. The other part is our governing board. And there are twelve members, and they all represent different entities in research and also in fire management. So they also represent their individual agencies and bureaus. So we have folks from all of the DOI bureaus and then also the Forest Service Research and development and also the Washington office. So that's kind of the overall structure of the program itself. But I'm going to let Karen talk to what we consider to be kind of really our bread and butter of the program.
[00:05:40] Speaker D: Sure. So just to add a little bit more to what Colleen was talking about and then jump into the fire science exchange network that I help coordinate. But as Colleen mentioned, we are a congressionally created program, and I think that makes the program really special, along with the inter agency aspect that she talked about. And really, the intent of how the program was created was to fund wildland fire science research. And so we did that for many years, beginning in 1998, up until now. And then around 2009, we noticed through an independent program review that we had done that we're putting so much science out there, yet we don't know how it's being used. And so that caused us to take a moment to pause and figure out how we can create a delivery network of getting science into the hands of managers. So we created something called a fire science exchange network in 2009, and there's 15 of them, and they've been with us to date. And as Colleen said, one of our shining stars of the program.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Are those like for each state, or is there a regional, how are those kind of set up?
[00:06:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:44] Speaker D: So they're regionally based. There's 15 of them, includes Alaska and Hawaii. They do vary in size. They vary in terms of the amount of funding that we give them. Again, Colleen mentioned, we have a governing board that has fiduciary responsibility over our program. So they decide how much to fund each exchange, and they came up with a set of criteria that determines who to fund and how much to fund. So we fund these 15, anywhere from 150,000 a year to 320,000 a year. So they do great work. Again, as I mentioned, they bring science to managers, the public, their end users in their area. And they do so through really neat things like webinars and workshops and conferences. And then also really neat mediums like this, podcasts and story maps, infographics. But, yeah, to go back to your earlier questions, they are regionally based. And, Colleen, do you want to talk a little bit about how those were mapped out initially?
[00:07:43] Speaker C: Sure. Initially. I mean, they're kind of loosely aligned with the way that the GACs are. And in fact, some ways, they sort of represent those regional differences and nuances according to the different fuels. But I think that they also represent the different challenges within fire science. So, for example, maybe the great basin, it's more tailored to things like invasive species and grazing and looking at fuel loadings and maybe, for example, the several subregions of the California exchange, they all have different focus areas that they're involved with. But let's look at one, for example, in forested areas, they're looking at Beetlekill and those sorts of things, including indigenous knowledge and cultural burning. So depending on the various regions, the fire science exchanges have different focuses.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: So how do they work?
You have this whole exchange network that works under the joint fire science program itself.
[00:08:52] Speaker D: That's a really good question. And I think what makes this really unique is that it goes beyond the, let's say, federal agency lines and borders. And so while we are an interagency program, what's really neat about the entities that we have funded, we fund federal, state, local, tribal, and the NGO community. So, related to the exchange network, a lot of them are academic institutions that we fund. And some of them, so we call those, we give them funding through something called a cooperative agreement. And then some also get funding through federal agencies. But predominantly, a lot of them are academic institutions which also receive support and contribution from ngos. For example, the forest Guild is a really big partner, TNC, the fire learning Network. So really goes beyond that federal agency ownership and boundary, and TNC being the Nature Conservancy. And the forest guild is another ngo that we have there. Queen I'm trying to think of some other ones that we may have.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: Well, each different one has different partnerships that they have, and each of them have advisory committees that are similar to kind of like our board, the way that they function. The other thing, I like to think of them as really magnifying the work that's done for every project that is finalized from an academic research project. It gets amplified and moves through the community like a wave.
For example, I just got the email trying to think, is it the fire learning network? Network email. And they post all kinds of different information about events that are coming up or job openings. And it's just amazing to see how this information just scatters. It's great. It's really our main connection to fire science, to the world of that. Like she said, that academic research that takes place, it just gets communicated far and wide, and it gets done in.
[00:10:52] Speaker D: A way that isn't something that just sits on your shelf. As you can imagine, a lot of scientific reports, it's just another book on your shelf. And while it's really important, what's neat about this exchange network is they really try to foster trust, collaboration, and bring managers to the table. And so there's this reciprocal back and forth between managers and scientists listening to each other in terms of what they work on and how information gets communicated. And I think that's what's really special and how this information gets communicated. The other thing I did want to mention is, while there's so many different end users, because of the geography that each of these regions and exchanges are in, their end users vary. So a lot of them do have federal land bases, for example, but some of them don't, especially back east in the south. The Great Plains is a really good example, Colleen and I. And it might have been maybe Colleen, but it was definitely my first time heading to Kansas last April. And we went to the Great Plains Exchange in Manhattan, Kansas. That's where they're based, and their primary end users are private landowners. And so we really got to see how they bring science into grazing, for example, and have prescribed fire there on the landscape, and how they both work together, which is very different from some other states. So it really serves as a good learning model for each of the exchanges to follow, depending on where they're at.
[00:12:16] Speaker C: Yeah, they even have prescribed burning groups that get together. And so these private landowners were really interested in some of the science that's going on. And I like to think of this, as Karen sort of alluded to, that this is a two way thing. So not only are we delivering the science that's been produced from the academic research community, but we're also gathering ideas and soliciting research needs from the folks that are going to be using it. And in a way, we're trying to model that in some ways, kind of like the bushfire natural hazards group in Australia. They take an idea from the management community, and all the way along, they're stepping through the research that's needed to get either policy or safety or to do things more efficiently or more economically. And that's kind of the model that we like to look at.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: So then researchers will have an idea for a project or a research project and then submit that idea and then look for maybe funding for that.
[00:13:20] Speaker C: Well, how does that work? One way that it works, we have multiple different arms that we try to reach out to the community to get the research needs, and a lot of that is done through our science advisor, Molly Hunter. But the fire science exchange network has an opportunity every spring to bring forth ideas. And you might think, okay, well, how do you sort out what's already been suggested from what's already been done? And so we do those literature reviews and assessments and try to find gaps and needs. And so there's a database. There's actually a database that we maintain by topic, by region, by subject, that will help people sort that out and see if it's already been something that's been considered or if it needs to be revisited or expanded. So, through the exchange network, but also through fire managers, we encourage people to go through their fmos and bring that forward to, say, the operational folks at NFC also solicit research needs on our behalf. They go to the state fmos and they'll ask folks, what is the difference between a management need and a science need, and where are the overlaps? For example, maybe there's a model that needs to be validated, or, for example, safety zones. Folks want to know what's the science behind that? How big is my safety zone, and do I need it to be larger? Well, say in your IRPG, some of those guidelines or those safety considerations have been based on science that we've done with the fire lab and other research needs.
[00:14:59] Speaker D: I'll just add on to that. So our work is cyclical, and so you can think about it on an annual basis. So we do tailor all of our research questions and opportunities that we fund on a yearly basis. And so to what Colleen was talking about, there's numerous ways and how we go about soliciting information. So, again, it's scientists and managers working together, and we identify several management problems, basically, or several science questions. And then the next part of the cycle, as she mentioned, and Molly Hunter's or all star, we figure out which of those to fund based on what's emerging. And once that happens, we'll work with our program analyst, Becky Jenison, who's been with the program nearly since the beginning. And so she knows everything, all the ins and outs about the program. And so once our governing board decides which of the proposals that we get based on the topics that we've put out to fund, Becky will put funding in place, and then the researchers go out and will conduct the studies. And the hope is, again, one to five years, some kind of timeline in between there, we get some findings, and that's where now we have the science. And then the science gets disseminated into the ground with the final hope or the end of the cycle is that now that we have the science, information has gotten out there, how are managers actually incorporating that into their decisions, policies, into their plans, into their writing? Just general being in terms of their philosophies. And then that cycle continues on a yearly basis, so, pretty predictable. And I think that's what we all really like about the work that we do, is we have the cycle to follow.
[00:16:38] Speaker C: Yeah, it's exciting to see that season. Right now, we're in the middle of peer reviews, so the proposals that were submitted last September have gone through relevancy checks and individual peer reviews. We asked the fire science community to come together as subject matter experts, and so they'll sit and do their individual reviews in the fall. And then right now we're going through the panel reviews of groups. So they bring their individual ratings on each proposal together and they discuss them, and they come to consolidated agreement on which proposals should be considered further by our governing board and our science committee. So it won't be until probably March or so before those proposals that were submitted back in September will be reaching a decision. But all the while, at the same time, on that annual cycle, we're also developing task statements for the next solicitation and call for proposals that will go out this summer.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: And those are due in September. Then?
[00:17:40] Speaker C: Well, it just varies. For example, we recently got into the pool where we're receiving some bill funding. And so that has allowed us to do it, stretch our dollars a little bit further. And so with that comes some other steps that we need to take, including looking at the press releases and all the communications around that and also getting extra approvals. So there's a few different layers. And so depending on the funds that are going to be used for each solicitation, it varies on the calendar, depending on policy and what extra work we need to put into it.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: I was just going to ask, like, on average, how many proposals do you guys see each during each solicitation? Quite a few.
[00:18:21] Speaker C: Well, for example, this year we have six task statements that we're reviewing proposals for, and that's quite a few. It's been several years since we've had six task statements, and each of them has maybe five to eight proposals that have made the cut. So I think we started out with 77, and so now we're down to less than 40. But the other thing I might mention is our other shining star is that we're really committed to workforce development. And one of the ways that we do that is we support student investigators. So people who are studying advanced degrees in fire science or fire ecology or fuels, they have the ability to apply for what's called a graduate research innovation award. We call it the Grin award. And that makes everyone smile.
Over the years, this has been an annual cycle of solicitation as well. And so that brings in anywhere from 20 to 25 additional proposals that are funded.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a lot.
[00:19:32] Speaker C: That's way cool.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: So the taskings, where do those come from?
[00:19:36] Speaker C: Well, they're developed from the research needs that ultimately go back to the management community.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Sorry, I was just going to say.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: I've heard all these questions now can alarm.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: I was just wondering where those tasking states come from. Do people propose those too as well, or like you said, from the science side?
[00:19:56] Speaker D: Yes. No, they come from all over the fire science exchange network. Molly will work with them on a yearly basis and she'll say, go out. Go to your scientist managers, bring them to roundtables, ask them what they're seeing is an emerging need. So every year they can send up to two to three. There is a template that they follow. They write down what the need is. Is there any research about it? So that's one way. Our governing board, member of twelve panel, they'll send any needs that they hear about. And their locations are really varying from North Carolina to Alaska to folks in DC. And so they have a really good pulse on both science and management. And then we'll have information come up through NFC and our leadership there in terms of what they hear. So a lot come to the table, but certainly not a lot make the cut. And the ones that do make the cut, they're based on a lot of monthly discussions with our governing board. And as well as funding, I do have to talk about funding. That's a big piece. So we're currently operating at about 13 million that stayed consistent at least for the last year or so. But as you can imagine, we've had ebbs and flows, so that determines how many projects we can fund. And so we're kind of in an upward cycle right now, which is really nice to support research.
[00:21:12] Speaker C: Yeah. And you know what? That really brings up something that I think is important. We'd be remiss if we didn't talk about it during the leaner years where our budgets weren't quite as robust. We had to really take a serious look at what we do well and what we do different from other funding organizations that fund fire science. And recently we've noticed that there are some new partnerships that are being formed and folks that are jumping on board with fire science. And so considering that 13 million sounds like a lot of money, but not when you're looking at other entities that are in the hundreds of millions. So looking at what we do best, the fire science delivery with the exchange network and supporting workforce development, we've decided that those are two areas that we really want to continue in our investment portfolio, that the board has decided to continue. And along those lines, we've always looked at what we called typically lines of work where we have common themes. So those task statements don't have as much variability. They're concentrated on something of substance that the fire community really considers to be important.
So, for example, many years we focused on what was called the science plan or the smoke science plan, I should say. And so there were themes to that and there were callings for research proposals that were all about smoke. So impacts of smoke, the chemistry of smoke, the physics of smoke. You might remember the Fasmi fire and smoke model experiment that involves several different agencies. So most of the smoke science plan has been completed now. And another line of work that we're looking at now could be developed into something, including adaptation to climate change. So we're strongly vested in looking at things that are more of a sustained research topic that might go on for several years. Another emerging need that has been brought to our attention and that we've always focused on, quite frankly, but has really become important in the fire science community is firefighter health and wellness. So there's overlaps to smoke there, but there are so many different entities that are working in that space right now and we're trying to find out where is our niche and what do we bring to that.
So while the task statements this year seem a little bit more varied, I think that there's a really concerted effort to make them more concise and focused around sustained research in the future.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: What's an example of one from this year? A task statement.
[00:23:53] Speaker C: Task statement that was out this year that is a little bit different is equity. For example, a panel that we looked at different proposals was about how do smoke and wildfire impacts affect different communities in different ways. So, for example, maybe there are folks that have lower incomes or different demographics and they maybe aren't as prepared in their communities to deal with the effects of fire and smoke. So that's one equity and inclusion. Another one is water quality. How do fire and smoke affect water quality in communities pre and post fire? We're also looking at proposals that will be decided on related to carbon and soil. So how the carbon and the soil composition changes over time as a result of wildfire.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say that's a lot of good stuff. I mean, people talk about that in general, and so it's awesome to see the science behind it, learn about it.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: What's different this year is that we are delving a little bit more into social science, and that's really difficult in some ways because some of the proposals don't social scientists. And the intersection with fire doesn't happen very often. It's a very rare breed of folks. So we're asking them to answer questions that are really difficult but very meaningful. It's on everyone's minds, like you said. But to really get to the meat of that, we need what Molly coined as boundary spanners, people who are able to interpret fire for the social aspect of it.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. I mean, Karen and I deal with mean Carrie all the time with the smoke and communities and the impacts and how is that? So that's going to be interesting to see what that comes out of that.
[00:25:46] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: So this might be kind of redundant after talking about all this, but why is it important to Wildland fire management that we have this program and continue the joint fire science program?
[00:25:58] Speaker D: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is it is interagency. So these topics that we solicit on a yearly basis come from multiple different sources. It's not just one agency saying this is what we want to focus on. It's several that have come to the table. It's gone through a really big process of weeding the ones. I think these are really emerging topics. I think that's what makes the program really important is a real emphasis on focusing on real time issues. I think that's a real big thing that makes the work that we do really.
So to that know, we do tailor timely wildlife fire research. So I think that's a really key component that people get results on the emerging issues as soon as they can. Another one, I would say, and Colleen hit this on the know, for a long time we focused very much on physical and hard sciences and mapping and all of that is still very important. But I think we are becoming more of a robust science program in that we are looking at the social aspect, we're looking at mental health, we're looking at physical safety. And I think that makes us more of a well rounded science program. And I think what allows us to keep being and serving in a really.
[00:27:14] Speaker C: Important role, that's absolutely on the head. I guess if I were to summarize it, I'd say why is it important to fire managers is because we're helping folks do their jobs better by either making it safer or more ethical or just providing sound science to really help people make the decisions that they do but have something to back it up.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Excellent. I know there's a lot of cool stuff that comes out flash Fridays. I know we're going to make a plug for that at the end, but.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: Not even shameless outright.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Sometimes it's overwhelming, though, how much science there is, yes.
[00:27:55] Speaker D: And speaking about that, I would say that was another reason that I was remiss to say this earlier about the network. You know, we have so much information out there. How do you filter it? And so that's another reason why these exchanges were created, because of how much information we have out there. And if you're in Florida, for example, you want information that is relevant to that area. And so that's why it's really important. This exchange network has played such a key role is that it's filtered information. It's taken all of the science and then really filtered the information, run it through the hose to make sure it's locally relevant to where you're staying and why it matters for that particular area. So, yeah, to your point, I think there's so much out there, and we're really trying to figure out how to put it out there in a concise manner without it being too overwhelming.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: It covers many audiences, too. Like you said, I like the well roundedness and the different aspects of it, too. I think that's important, for sure.
[00:28:55] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: So I think you kind of answered this a little bit, but we'll go into it a little bit more. The goals for the program, and what can we expect the program to accomplish.
[00:29:05] Speaker C: In the, you know, like Karen kind of alluded to, traditionally, we've been more of the fundamental science and the research, the academic research. And as I walk through the halls of some of the institutions, like the fire lab, I see all of the publications that have been funded by the joint fire science program, and I'm so proud of that. But yet when I walk into our publications room, it's like, wait a minute, things have changed so much. And I think the future is more the digital age. Even since five years ago, we have converted a lot of our paper based, our reports to more. What is the impact or the outcome of this work? And that's where it really hits the road, is where the interface between the science and the folks that are using it, the meaningful piece. And so our future really lies in that. Like you said, there's so much out there that people become saturated and overwhelmed. We need to find out what really matters to people. And so even with the Friday flash, for example, we want folks to tell us, what is that? What do you want to know? But a lot of times they don't know till they don't know.
You don't put a menu before people. You kind of rely on things to happen organically through these kinds of conversations and exposure. And the more that we cast our net a little more broadly. I think that it's going to change the way that we look at science because it matters to everyone.
It's not just academic anymore. There's a lot more accountability in the fire management world about, why did you do that? NEPA, for example, we have to document every single decision that we make. And so if there's a way that we can do that using science, and I think that that's where our future is, is helping folks do their jobs better.
[00:30:59] Speaker D: Yeah. And to that point, I would say, I think a lot of our goals are unchanged in terms of funding, emerging issues and working with partners across the federal agency line, but also tribes, locally, states, ngos. But I would also say moving into the future and just what we've learned over the past 25, now 26 years, which is amazing, is how do we tell our success stories? And Colleen talked about this with NEPA and other things, for example, and there's a lot of science and managers coming together initially, and some of it happens throughout the cycle. But it would be really great for us to know how is the science making its way into the hands of managers? How are they using our information? How are they incorporating it? And so just as of maybe the last two years, we've been asking our exchange networks to be able to tell their stories better. What is the impact of your actions on the ground? You hold these workshops, but what really happens at the end of the day, and I think, I don't want to say it's a missing piece, but it's a piece that we're still working on, and we need to figure out how to better tell those stories of impact on the ground.
[00:32:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Our annual reports have changed so much in the last few years. It's not how many webinars did you do, but what was the webinar about and who did you meet and what did you have in common? Because this fire culture is very much. I know you. I trust you. Hey, I saw you on a fire once. I remember you were our meteorologist. In that regard, it's much different than other entities. And so going from how many to what is the meaning or what is really important, or what was the big.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Takeaway and how is the science actually applied and how it affects me.
[00:32:47] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Or what we're doing, and we're getting.
[00:32:50] Speaker D: Some really great examples. People will say, well, this burn boss attended this training, and then we heard back from him via email, and he actually took some of his learnings from the class and applied it in his teachings. And that's a great example of how something gets taught and then brought into something that gets applied on the ground. And I think there's so many cases where this does happen and it's just how do we better document those and tell those to everyone?
[00:33:17] Speaker B: I think that's one of the things that we have a hard time telling. I work with states and everything on success stories we do and it's like pulling teeth. Like just tell us the awesome stuff that you so much stuff is happening, like getting that information and those nuggets and pictures. Everyone has a camera, but it was like, oh, we didn't take a picture. I'm like, oh, take a picture that 1000 words. And so I think that is an hold a fire program of telling the success stories is so hard and it's changing for the better now just because we have so much stuff going on. So. Yeah, I like that piece.
[00:33:48] Speaker C: Yeah. And the fire community is very humble too. So they don't see it as a success story. They see as I go to work, I do this every day. I'm not a hero. But that's where the stories are made. Yeah.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: They're like this is my job. This is what I do every day. And so why is it any special that I did this than I did the other day? But sometimes we have to help people to say no. But that is special in this way because it affects this and the impacts.
[00:34:13] Speaker C: Definitely science.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Science is the new word.
[00:34:16] Speaker C: Science.
[00:34:19] Speaker A: So what do you see as some of the challenges we face in Wildland? Fire fuels management and fire impacted ecosystems.
[00:34:27] Speaker C: Where do we start?
[00:34:30] Speaker A: We have another hour.
[00:34:31] Speaker D: Truly, I think it's such a changing fire environment, this changing climate. I think it's really hard to know. You may have all these models and certainly you can kind of project and forecast what's going to happen, but you never really know. And I think that's something that will continues to be a challenge. I think that's been a challenge for several years. I think the other challenges, for example, I think a big one that we've started working on and which has been somewhat of a stigma, but we're trying to move away from that is talking about mental health and firefighter health and wellness. I think that's a really big one. Our exchanges have done some work in that they held a really neat kind of three day summit last year where they brought professionals in and they approached it in a really neat way. They talked about, here's the science about what we know about firefighter mental health and safety. Then they talked about, brought in the professionals with knowledge and tools. And so I think that continues, will continue to be a challenge. But I also think there's a really great opportunity in how we go about addressing it and talking about it in a really open way. So those are some of the ones.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: That come to my mind, important challenges.
[00:35:42] Speaker C: Yeah, those are the big ones. And then there's so many different subtopics within that. And one of those is prescribed fire and fuels reduction. Right. Hazardous fuel reduction. And while everybody at the end of the day agrees that's a good idea, it's really hard to implement on the ground.
People don't want smoke in their neighborhood. But the trade offs, just being able to communicate that to folks is a real challenge for us sometimes.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: And the potential escapes. And how do you mitigate all that?
[00:36:12] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:36:13] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:36:14] Speaker D: I think another big one that comes to mind, and Colleen talked about it earlier, is this diversity, equity, inclusion and justice piece. The Deij, again, I think, certainly was a challenge. There's a lot more windows of opportunity. Know you have secretarial priorities, you have different department emphasis on DeIJ. We're talking about it a lot in terms of workforce development and bringing in people from all varied backgrounds. And so certainly a challenge, but again, one that I think we have more of an open window now to address and should really actively focus on that. And we are, I feel like at the Joint fire science program, our exchanges do a really nice job at making a lot of their events accessible. They're bringing in a lot more tribal perspectives than we have in the past. They're really trying to reach for nontraditional folks. We've had non binary folks attend some of our conferences. We've had workshops focused on that. From a fire perspective, we've had a lot of women in fire and leadership, a lot of women focused Trex events. So, yeah, so again, I think there's a lot of window of opportunity with something that certainly was a challenge in the past, but we're continuing to kind of grow and make it more open.
[00:37:28] Speaker C: Yeah. And those are some of our challenges kind of embedded in the fire management challenges. But I think overall, a big one is workforce development. Who are the next fire managers and how are they going to get their science? So bridging that gap and making it accessible to everybody in the way the form that they want to ingest data and science is really a challenge, much less getting the workforce in place.
It's really hard to get new folks into the system and train them and have the standards in place to make them do it safely. So in that regard this is a little bit different, but we don't inform training or operations. But we do try to have those collaborations with NWCG. We have folks that are liaisons to each of the subcommittees so that we can stay involved and get that science infused into the training for the next generation of fire managers.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it seems know we're looking at. Well you just google it or is there an app for that?
[00:38:30] Speaker D: Right.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: And I know there's applications coming out for different, various different things you can do in.
[00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: And I'm sure the science exchange network had some play in that.
[00:38:46] Speaker C: Absolutely. In that same know we have partnership with the RDNA. They have lots of great applications that people are using every day.
The research, development and applications branch of the US forest service.
So for example, you might have heard of iftidis or know decision support tools and applications. And so way back join fire science program, help fund those. And although we're not endorsing any one tool or application that people use, we do try to help with the science that informs how those applications are made and what the user experience might look like or rolling out how the people are going to be using it. Some of the training through webinars and workshops and that kind of thing.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: I think that's cool because I'm learning a ton. Like you guys are behind the scenes, really. You're kind of at that ground level of that research and then figuring it out. But you guys have your fingers on a lot of things that people don't know that you do at all whatsoever. So I think that's cool. And like I said, I love these podcasts for that reason, just learning things.
[00:39:56] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. And for so many years, I feel like JFSP was incognito. Right. And then when I was in Karen's position, it was like, let's brand ourselves, let's put some colors out there and let's identify ourselves with the fire science exchange network because so many people frankly think that they're two separate entities. They're like, how do you guys know each other? And it's like we're kind of family.
Yeah, we're sort of the parents.
So in that way, I'm glad that we're sharing our know that we're helping make JFSP kind of the household name in the fire community.
Yeah.
[00:40:36] Speaker D: And to your point, Jennifer, I think it's really neat when we do see a lot of JFSP products kind of embedded in everyday work. And an example for me was I was sitting in the RT 130 refresher, either last year or the year before, and you all had pulled together, we were talking about safety zones, and you all had pulled together or highlighted a story map. And that story map was produced by one of the exchanges in the southwest. And it was just, again, full circle moment. Neat to see something where you take the wildland fire science, a particular topic, do research on it, put it together in a way that's accessible, a story map. People like colors and maps and then something that actually gets applied. And you all used it for RT 130. So I think it's really neat to see application and products that we fund show up in different ways and RT.
[00:41:28] Speaker A: 130 being our fire refresher that we do every year. But yeah, my mind is like swirling right now. I was like, okay, there's all these different things that people don't know exactly. Don't know that the joint fire science program had a part in it because it's being applied through different means.
[00:41:45] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:41:45] Speaker A: But all that science is being used that you guys are helping fund for what we do, keeping us safe and all that, everything we do.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: And I think that's the thing too, is like they think, oh, this came up, but there's the science behind it. And I think that's what people are missing.
Yes, someone thought it up, but then there was this whole process of how it went through. And so that's the cool part, is like science is always behind us somewhere.
[00:42:08] Speaker D: Yes, I love that.
[00:42:10] Speaker C: Thank you for acknowledging that because we went through a little bit of a dark period in our history where it was like science didn't matter and we had to sort of compete for dollars for helicopters and everything is important. Right. And when budgets are lean, sometimes science goes by the wayside. So I appreciate that you recognize how it's really helping everyone else do their jobs.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:42:35] Speaker C: Again, science.
Thomas Dolby keeps coming to mind.
[00:42:39] Speaker D: Science.
[00:42:41] Speaker C: Bill Nye.
[00:42:45] Speaker A: Yeah, so all these projects are coming in and funded or getting funded through this networks. It's like joint fire Science exchange network.
What if some individual has an idea? Because we sometimes get questions about like, hey, I have this great idea that I think would help. And it's usually maybe a product that might help firefighters, but what if they had some idea about maybe that would be more science based, such as, I'll just throw this one out. A recent one was how to maybe convert coal plants into biomass plants using that dead fuel to produce energy of these plants that aren't being used anymore. So something like that. Do you get questions like that from individuals or how would somebody that had an idea like that go about maybe getting some backing or funding or who would they talk to?
[00:43:42] Speaker C: Occasionally we do get those know, requests or ideas, suggestions, whether it's, hey, I've got this new idea, this retardant. But typically people will go either through an NWCG committee, like a fuels committee or fire danger committee, or through their know, what they found through social studies that have been done is that most people identify through their fuels specialists. That's kind of the common tie between the operational world and the scientific researchers. The communities collide there. And so that's probably the best way for us to get ideas from the field. But yeah, occasionally we get some of those almost solicitations really for commercial products. And I don't know that any of them have been funded by us, but some of them really make you sit back and go, would that work? Yeah. New tactics for aviation and that sort of thing sometimes, yeah.
[00:44:45] Speaker D: And the few emails and calls have fielded on this, I'll say, have you taken a look at our notice of funding opportunity announcements? Those are solicitations that we put out on a yearly basis. And is there something in any of, say, there are six topics. Is there anything in the six where your idea might fit into that? And so that would be the first Avenue. I would have them look at another one. If it was, as you said, more of a scientific process or something like that, I would say, well, maybe reach out to your local fire science exchange network and maybe they have done some work on that. Or maybe there's a partnership opportunity, maybe some kind of collaboration where you can contribute, maybe by helping out in an event, a podcast, some kind of product that they're developing based on your experience that you can potentially contribute your work to. So I think those would be maybe two of the avenues that we've kind of suggested to folks in the past.
[00:45:42] Speaker C: Yeah. And just to follow up on that, Karen mentioned that a lot of the exchanges are funded and operate through academic institutions. Some of those also have collaborative partnerships with the extension service. So sometimes ideas come through extension.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: And what is extension service then?
[00:46:00] Speaker C: Well, they're the extension of the university. Right. So it's more the way that I think of it, or what I remember from my relatives that were growing up in the Great Plains is that say, for example, the University of needed, the farmers and ranchers needed help with maintaining the soil during the drought years and having better practices so that they wouldn't lose that topsoil. And so the extension service actually had representatives that would come out and help them do their farming and their ranching a little bit better with some science. And so in the context of fire and forested ecosystems, there are people that work for the exchange networks that also represent extension. So they get ideas because they are the people that are in contact with the public or with the folks that are working the ground or working in the landscape. So they might get an idea and they can bring that back through the exchange network.
[00:47:02] Speaker D: Yeah, we have a lot of good work taking place, whether it's in the northwest, in Oregon and Washington through the Northwest consortium, or down in Florida to the southern exchange. And where we do have folks who are involved with extensions. So a big focus for them will be outreach and education. So they'll hold a lot of events, know what is a prescribed fire to help people understand that. And folks can come out and participate in these different activities along with other kind of learning about Duff, for example, in Florida, in the south, how does fire move through Duff? And so there's a big emphasis with these extensions on application and then bringing in education and that outreach component.
[00:47:45] Speaker C: Great.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: Yeah, just a know, it's just a.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Lot to take in.
[00:47:50] Speaker B: Yeah, great, though. A lot of great information.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: So anything else that we maybe haven't covered that you want to talk about before we close out?
[00:47:59] Speaker C: I would just encourage folks, if you're not already familiar with the Friday flash, go into our website, it's firescience. Gov. And sign up because you'll be amazed at all the information that'll cross your desk on a Friday afternoon.
[00:48:13] Speaker D: Absolutely. And then I think our website has a ton of information. Colleen talked about the database we have on there. We also have a record of all of the science that we have funded. So you can go back and you can filter it by topic based on what research was completed, what they found. There's some really nice final reports on there. We talk a lot about our accomplishments on a yearly basis. And then I would also nod beyond ourfirescience. Gov. But on that page, go and find your local fire science exchange network and maybe link in with an event that they're doing to learn more about fire and what it means for you on the landscape. I would say that would be another one. A lot of them have their own respective social media pages. They also have their own newsletters. So they really try to get out information similar to what we do at the national office through different mediums. We just appreciate this conversation and getting science out there.
[00:49:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I might extend the shameless plug because my mind is about peer review. Right now. And we're always looking for folks who are willing to give a little time to review some of the proposals that we get as subject matter experts. The field has so much to give and everybody brings their unique perspectives. So I highly encourage you to get a hold of us so that we can get you in on the discussions and review some proposals so that you're really giving back to the fire community.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: Is that on your website as well to contact you if somebody wanted to do be a participant in that?
[00:49:46] Speaker D: Absolutely. We have our website, and then on thefirescience. Gov we have all of our contact information along with the joint email that we all look at. So go ahead and take a look at that and send us an email. We get all kinds of questions from types of research we've funded to expressing interest and certainly always looking for more peer reviewers.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Well, thank you, Colleen and Karen, for joining us today for our 23rd episode of Wildfire Matters and the Conversation, my head spinning. There's like a lot of science going on out there.
[00:50:17] Speaker C: Thank you for the opportunity.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: But we always see this, what you do behind the scenes or hear about it, but don't really understand how it all works. So thank you for explaining that and how the exchange network works and what they actually are and what they do. Appreciate that.
[00:50:38] Speaker C: You're welcome. Thanks for letting us put a face to the name.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah, same thing, too. I'm like, I don't think people really know, actually. I mean, I think they know JSP, this is what it is, but they don't really truly know what it is. And so I think that's an awesome, this is awesome to have this podcast and kind of get that awareness out there.
[00:50:55] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:50:56] Speaker D: Thanks for the opportunity.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: If you have questions, comments, or even suggestions on different topics for our podcasts, please email them to BLM. Underscore FA underscore nipseycomments at BLM. Gov and use wildfire matters in the subject line. To learn more about Nipsey or the BLM, please visit our website at www. Nipsey. Gov and follow us on Facebook at blmfire at Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.
[00:51:24] Speaker A: And I believe we do have a link to the joint fire science program on our website as WHOOP. You can search for it there, too if you can't find it. It's pretty easy to find, though, if you just Google joint Fire science project.
But thank you all for listening and join us next time when we spark a conversation with Jake Ferguson, the BLM emergency Stabilization and rehabilitation program lead.
And joining him will be Brandon Brown from the national Seed Warehouse program to talk about post fire recovery and the importance of emergency stabilization after a severe wildfire. Until then, stay safe and be wildfire aware.
