Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the 31st episode of Wildfire Matters, the podcast that covers all aspects of wildland fire management for the Bureau of Land Management, or blm. We talk with the people who help manage and protect our public lands, many dedicating their lives to the profession. We are in hiring season now for wildland fire management across all agencies, BLM included. And firefighter positions are up for next year in USA jobs currently.
So we thought this would be a great time to talk about the different types of positions available, hiring process, and tips for applicants. And today we are talking with Kim Darnall, human resource officer for Fire and Aviation for multiple Department of Interior agencies, working at the National Interagency Fire Center. Nipsey with us.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: And Ben Patton, who is fire program specialist focusing on workforce development and training for blm, Montana Dakotas, out of the state office in Montana. Welcome, Ben.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: I got that right. Right. That's kind of a mouthful.
[00:01:19] Speaker C: You did?
Yep.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: All right. Yeah. Ben is joining us virtually. Kim's in the studio with Piper and I, and we'll get this going. So first off, we want to learn a little bit more about both of your backgrounds and how you got to your current position. So, Kim, we'll start with you. What was your path to human resources?
[00:01:43] Speaker B: It probably was not what I thought my future was going to hold, but I was down in Arizona working in a dental office, and I was taking some X rays, and I had asked a person how, like, why she was there. Right. She wasn't a military member. She wasn't a wife of a military member. And she had let me know that she had a job with the army in human resources. So we started to talk about it. This was almost exactly like 15 years ago or so. And she had let me know that they were posting announcements on boards at that time for recent graduates and asked me to send her my resume. And I did. And they called me a few days later, and they put me in a training class for HR specialists. And. And then once I got done with that, it was about nine months, and they ended up sending me to Walla Walla, Washington. So I spent about five years there, and then I've been at NFC the last 10. So I came over to Nipsey as a lead, went to a supervisory specialist, and now I'm the hro, and I'm very excited to be here, but I really. I fell into it just right time, right place. So I know that's not common for government workers, and I'm Very blessed that it like felt apart or fell into place that way. So awesome. Yeah.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: So how about you, Ben?
[00:02:54] Speaker C: So I started fire back in 1998. The chainsaw kind of is what got me into fire. I, as a young teenager in northeast Minnesota, I grew up logging and running a saw and it's what kind of was the invitation into fire for me. And I started out on a type 2 IA crew and ended up working my way up to an engine captain. And then I actually took some years off. My kids were young and I thought I wanted to try something different in the private sector and did that for a few years and just missed fire the whole time. So I sold my business and came back into fire and had to start all over again. Which actually I think was a pretty unique part of my career. Having kind of to go through a bunch of this process twice. And I think I came back a much different person. And I've been involved in fuels and fire my whole career. Operations has kind of been the focal point of what I do. And then this last January, I left the operations. I was a fire operations specialist for the BLM and moved into training and workforce development. I've got a real passion for seeing people's careers grow and people as individuals grow and it was a good fit for me. So this is my first non supervisory job in almost 20, 23 years. So it's kind of a change for me. But I've over my career spent an enormous amount of time on hiring committees for everything from entry level up to supervisory staff. And I really spent a lot of time in the hiring process and also helping new folks kind of get into the government. And I have a unique perspective on that with two of my kids being in fire and my wife as well. So just glad to be here and pretty happy in my career now resides in Billings, Montana and I get to spend each day working towards the development of fire careers for several hundred staff. So it's a good position to be in.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, we're excited to have you and Kim here because we have somebody who is working on that and helping people get into the positions and somebody who on the back end side of things can help point people in the right directions, give them tips and tricks as well.
[00:05:13] Speaker D: Yeah, it's great to have both sides of the equation, the HR side and then the actual fire experience and different levels of fire management. Yeah. So Kim, can you describe the role that the human resource office plays in Wildland fire management and hiring?
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Sure. So I think our office, we're unique in the Fact that we have three different teams and I won't dive too far into them. But we've got DOI fires that works on temporary for multiple agencies. We've got our external team that focuses on BLM permanent hires for a lot of our states and partially was the workload that the states were taking on and not enough staff to help. So we like kind of created this program to help things be a little bit more, I don't want to say more efficient but just get them help. The recruitments don't have to compete with other positions with the state. Right. Like the fire positions are our priority. So that's nice for us. And then we've got our internal team that does the multi agency. Right. So we've got BIA Park Fish and Wildlife or Fish and Wildlife and blm. And so I think our office really just plays a part with wildland fire that we've got so many unique groups of people working on getting people into fire. Right. Like we're evaluating resumes, like we're answering questions. I think the biggest thing is like us taking the time to answer those questions when people call and, and don't understand the process. It's a very, I don't want to say complicated but it's a system that if you've used it a couple times you might feel semi comfortable but almost every time it's a guessing game. Did all my paperwork go through? It looks like it did. What am I missing? So I think the role of our office is really here just to support and try to teach and take every opportunity we can to like let those applicants know what they can do better next time or what worked and notify and keep things going as quickly as we can. So our office is really focused on that and providing good customer service to our customers and our and our applicants.
[00:07:03] Speaker D: So yeah, it's going to be great to hear what you have to say especially from my perspective. I'm relatively new to the, to federal jobs and I remember when I first got started the process seemed very daunting. USA Jobs is very different than anything I had looked at before. I didn't understand how it worked and yeah, it's just kind of like you send it off and you don't have a lot of guidance especially if you don't know anybody else who has worked a federal position. So could you tell us what HR officers look for on resumes or job applications?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So our HR specialists. I think the main thing is we're looking at a lot of things but I think the most Important thing to think of is being detail oriented. Right. As an applicant, we're taught in college or high school or whenever that you want to keep your resume short. And that's not the. That's not the case for federal work. And I think that's confusing to people, especially when you've been told for so long, like, don't make it too complicated. We don't need complexity, but we do need details. So I think it's easy to say, tell us what you do, but then to put it down on paper and really explain it to someone that has no idea what your job entails. And we can't assume anything. So giving us as much detail about, like, what you're currently doing. So we are able to verify whether or not you are eligible and qualified to do the next job. Right. The job that you put in for. And I think it's critical to make sure your full resume shows that kind of detail and not just assume we're using your most recent. People inside and outside the government, like have different grades and pay and levels of work. And you just want to make sure that you're being very clear to us because the easier you make it for us, the easier it is for us to push you through. So also, a big thing that we want to look for is dates. We want to make sure that people have month and year on their resume. I think that's missed probably the most. And then the hours worked. That's been something like in the last three years, we've kind of been pushing more towards because we've realized that people are sometimes on working throughout the summer, but only called intermittently and not working for 40 hours a week. So it's really hard for us to figure out how long their experience has actually lasted if we don't have the hours. So hours and year and month are critical. And then more detail on your actual.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Duties because some of the positions they're actually asking for, like, cumulative time in. So that becomes critical when you're kind of adding up that time.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Exactly. Yep. And thank you for adding that piece, because it is. I mean, we've got firefighters or doesn't matter what job you're doing, if you only do it for three months and you're doing it 40 hours a week, we get to count those three months. But then as soon as you start doing it 20 hours a week because you're a student, so you're only doing part time. Well, now that three months has gone to one and a half. Right. And so I think those are the Things that are hard for people to really wrap their minds around. We're asking for a year of something or six months of something, and we really are calculating almost day by day. So that's another piece that, you know, it's not too often, and we don't have it on our applications. But if you're really trying to count exactly a year and you're trying to add all that up, then adding the exact day is also very helpful. So.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: And overtime hours don't count, correct?
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. I mean, people can say they're doing 60 hours per week, and then it's like, but why doesn't that count towards more? But you're. Thank you for bringing that up as well. Then the max we can give is 40. So.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And as far as the details, that was a good point because you can write. Be very complex in your answer, but the details matter, like you said, because you could just say, I was a wildland firefighter. But a wildland firefighter for the BLM might be different in the job duties you have as a wildland firefighter for the Forest Service or Park Service or.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Your level of what your tasks, who you're responsible for, and that type of thing. And it is. It's really hard to not say, why wouldn't someone understand that this is my job? Right. And then as soon as you kind of keep working your way up, Just because you fought for fires at whatever grade doesn't mean that, like, the next grade indicates that you should be able to apply for it or qualify for it. Right. So we do need those details. And don't assume hr. It sounds bad, but don't assume HR knows anything. Right. Just explain it to us like you're trying to get a job.
[00:11:10] Speaker D: Yeah. And there is a template on USAjobs.gov that outlines exactly how to build your resume. Ben, I know that you've talked about this before, and Kim. Yeah. Would you agree that that is the exact template to follow like that?
[00:11:27] Speaker B: I think we kind of discussed it yesterday a little bit. I don't want to tell people that they have to do that. Right. But I think that if you're trying to be unique and creative and you're. You want your resume to stand out, you have to get through HR first, and we need to find the information. And then if you don't really even, like, use that template as something to start from, then you could miss a piece of information. Right. Like, that's why people don't put hours down, because the USA Jobs template puts it. But if you're using it and you want to like put it in a different format. Just make sure at least you're following like almost step by step what it's, what's in there so you don't end up missing something. So I want, we want people to do what they're comfortable with. Right. You don't have to, but it was a good point to say it's a good layout and it would hopefully encompass all the details that you need.
[00:12:10] Speaker D: Yeah, it's just a good guideline to, to help build.
[00:12:13] Speaker B: Exactly. Yep.
[00:12:14] Speaker D: Gotcha.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Very good, Very good.
[00:12:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And I, I recommend to people that I'm dealing with and working with, helping them through the process. I think there's, I think the USA Jobs application or resume helps them stay within some sideboards and it's really appropriate for the first few levels of jobs and it's going to help you not miss things. Not to say that you can't and I agree with what's been said already, but it'll help you hit the highlights that they're really looking for. And then as you develop in your care, you want to move that into a personal email or a personal resume. Excuse me, that highlights more of your accomplishments. And one thing I think that I try to help people understand too when they're building a resume, whether it's the USA Jobs format or their own, is when it gets to my desk after it's gone through HR and it's come to the selecting official. How do I decipher the difference between you and everybody else that qualified for the job? So you have to find creative ways to put things in there about yourself that sets you apart. Whether it's accomplishments or unique trips that you've gone on or things that make you a different selection. And we're constantly looking for in fire, we want people who are self motivated thinkers. You need to be fairly smart to be able to do this job. You need to be able to be a problem solver. And I look for really creative things in people's resumes and pretty cool example. Quite a few years ago I hired a gal who had no fire experience, but she was a highly decorated figure skater. And I thought about figure skating and I thought to myself, that's a very incredibly hard sport. You have to suffer. You have to go through a lot of pain and commitment to get to a high level. And I ended up hiring her almost not because of that she qualified for the job, but because of that uniqueness about her. And she has turned out to be just one of my top people I've ever hired. And that personality trait that made her good at figure skating really came out entire in an awesome way. So set yourself apart. If you've had experiences, make sure you get that into those resumes. And you can even fit that into a USA Jobs template too.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: That's an awesome point. And I know, isn't there a USA Jobs like cover letter type thing or you can add a cover letter or something to that. Does that help?
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Yep. So the COVID letter for us, just to be very clear, I think is more for a manager. HR is not supposed to use the COVID letter to qualify for anything. So even if you tell me you've done something for 15 years in your cover letter, we need it all in the resume. Right. So the COVID letter is really like more of a bonus, I think, for management to kind of give like an overview. But they are optional. I don't know that USA Jobs has a template, but you can definitely add a cover letter. They're not required, but that might be a good place to put something like that. But you can also do that on a resume, right. And mention kind of the extracurricular activities that you have.
[00:15:11] Speaker C: So, yeah, USAjobs doesn't have a template. And I see cover letters on entry level jobs probably on about 40% of them and a couple points on that. Number one, don't use AI because we can tell right away everyone's passionate and feels like their calling is to be a wildland firefighter. That's what every cover letter says. So if you're going to do it, use it to really spell something out about yourself. Obviously you want the job and so you applied for it. But talk about yourself in a unique way. And we do read the COVID letters oftentimes it's kind of becoming pretty common. That looks like a lot of them are written by AI and it's something I've noticed. So just a tip, be personal if you're going to make the effort to do it. The other thing you can do too is there's a spot in the resume where there's just a place, a paragraph at the top that you can. That's sufficient too. You can put some pretty good stuff about yourself in there. So, yeah, cover letters, 50, 50, if they're helpful or not. Actually, I've had cover letters ruin things for people too, just by the way they use them.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: And I don't know, I, you know, questions. This could flow in later, but I will say, because you had asked about the process and it being a little bit more complicated And I'll be the first to admit that I messed up on an application as well. And I mean, I'm in the system but seeing it from another viewpoint. Right. So I do want to reiterate that like calling and checking to see if your application has made it through is okay. There's numbers and emails at the bottom. Normally they're at the bottom, who knows like what, how they're going to change it. But normally the contact is at least on there to just say, did my application make it through? Right. I would also mention at this point to not wait till the last minute because if you run into an error, then there's no way to fix it. HR can't help you. USAjobs can't help you. I mean, that's the hard part, right? And we all know that sometimes things just happen at the last minute. But if you can't avoid it, I would do it a little bit earlier. But yep, at least checking because it is a confusing system and trying to navigate it and make sure everything's uploaded and saved. I prep as much as you possibly can Beforehand, get it 95% ready, do your last minute tweaks for that specific job in your resume and then get it going as soon as you can.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: So and try not to send it in at the last minute, the last hour.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Well, and I mean we all say that and I, like, I can't say that. I've never procrastinated on trying to do something like that. But it is, it's a system and HR can't fix it. That something happened and it looked like your resume didn't go through. But I mean, the midnight cutoff is eastern time. And I think that throws people off. Right? Like they see it in the announcement and it says Eastern, but they see midnight and they're like, well, I was working on it at 10:05 and it wouldn't let me add it and it's like, well, so yeah, just do it a little bit earlier. That way we can help if needed.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: And typically when I work on stuff too, I like emails. You send an email and then you reread what you wrote and you're like, oh, well, I messed up on that word. Or I swear I read that right? And it's always once you already send it. So that's a good point to go, maybe go back and see, okay, look at what I sent. And then I didn't know that there was that option to go and call HR and hey, I messed up on this. Can I fix it?
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Or even you know, some of our entry level positions you can qualify with transcripts. Well, if something happens and they don't go through and you don't have the work experience and you know, you just want to make sure everything is in there to give you the most opportunity to get again, get through HR to be seen by the hiring official. Right.
[00:18:39] Speaker C: So and make sure you have somebody else read it too. That's a really important part. You know, read over your documentation and lots and lots of resumes hit my desk over the years that I can tell have never been looked at by somebody else and that could really make a big difference for you. It's a very small effort to clean things up. So.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I know, yeah, I have.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Like a, my template that I would add to each year and you notice as you go through and grow into, you start looking at, oh, I wrote that last year and that doesn't sound right. You know, see, kind of change things up here too.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: And I will say as far as prep work, you guys have a great site set up, which is your BLM fire jobs portal. And I think that with those videos, I mean it's hard to prep when you know a job that you might want isn't coming open for six months or a year or something. Right. But at the same time it doesn't hurt to look at those videos, start something, get it into your profile on USA jobs, because that's part of the battle. Like it takes you a lot longer to get that set up than you would think. And so yeah, I definitely use those videos and kind of take it piece by piece and then you're not rushing in the last minute or last couple days. So yeah.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: And even if you're not applying for a BLM job, those would be very.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Helpful for, for anyone. Yeah. But do, do apply for blm.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: They'd be helpful for anyone. Yeah.
[00:19:58] Speaker D: Gotta play best.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: Not at all.
[00:20:01] Speaker D: Yeah. Even if you pre freed your stuff three times yourself, just have somebody else look at it because it may just make, not may make no sense to somebody else. Exactly.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Trying to get across. Exactly.
[00:20:13] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: So Ben, what about training? Since you work in workforce development and training a little bit, if you're brand new to fire, what types, what type of training do you need or what types of things do people look for? I guess what are you looking for in an applicant?
[00:20:29] Speaker C: So first off, as far as trainings required, all the entry level GS3 jobs don't, don't require any specific training. It is very helpful though if you can take Some of them. And both the Wildland Fire Learning Portal and FEMA have the available classes. The kind of the four baseline ones are IS100, IS700, S130 and S190 and all of those are free and available on both those locations. And if anybody contacts me before they apply for a job, I always highly recommend that they try to take those classes and get that into their resume. It's okay if you don't. Some programs do a rookie school when folks start in the spring, but it just, it sort of helps the onboarding process once you get to your station, your location. If you have some of that under your belt and even if they duplicate it, you're just going to be on par a little bit more. You'll be one step ahead. So as far as the pre training, those are the things I kind of recommend. And then but in life we're looking for people who like I kind of mentioned before, can be thinkers, folks that have showed some commitment to something whether it was a job or an organization or a sport or you know, volunteering is big for me that I see people care. This is a service job and it requires us to give a lot. And so I like to see that in people's resumes that there's a history of service, a history of working with people. Whitewater rafting guides, I've hired Team USA soccer players, like I said, figure skaters. I hired a newspaper photographer and he turned out just fantastic. And he's a rappeller now. And just people who have self started folks who have worked towards things. And a unique, I think thing that is now a part of our programs with the 0456 series is the BLM fire jobs all the way up to the top basically don't require a college education and we can basically do on the job training and supportive education as you progress. And that's a big selling point for us. And so for folks to feel like they have to go get a degree before they apply, that's just not the case. We welcome people right out of high school and life experience is great but we're looking for quality human beings to join a really, really outstanding organization. And so I think it plays into your resume, you know, how you answer questions in your application as well and then you very likely, if you get through hr, you know, get a phone call from somebody and kind of mentally prepare yourself for that. Answering some questions about life and job history and hobbies and what challenges you, you know, what drives you. All of those kinds of things are questions that could be part of those phone conversations. And it's really important that applicants spend some time mentally preparing themselves to apply for an arduous job, a job that's going to tax them. And that, that's not like what the big screen shows us that it is.
It's a job of you're either super fast paced or super slow pace. There's excitement and boredom all at the same time. And you really have to be able to adapt to changing environments. Constantly being okay with having a plan and having it wrecked and then you adjust and go and do something different. Welcome to Wildland Fire.
Stay flexible. I think that massive flexibility, fluidity, those are the things that I try to, when people come and approach me in my job as a training officer and workforce development is helping people find pathways in their career, whether they're new or in the career, and then finding ones that they're successful in. And so all of those things come into play and spend some time, not just in the paperwork side of things, but on you as a person, thinking about who you are and what you can offer to what we do before you apply for a job, because you'll get asked.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: And I'm nodding to that too, because, I mean, the more determination you have as an individual when you apply for the positions, I mean, you're working with a team. It's safety, mental health too. Right? Like these are your people for how many days, months, full year? I mean, it's a long time to be with this one crew and they're depending on you to be part of that team. So.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think another kind of sidelight that's really important, that is not really getting lost, but we're on the danger of it is the history behind Wildland Fire is really also important. And there's a lot of historical things out. There's great books. Read some of that, know about where we came from as a culture and learn about the things that formed us into who we are. And it'll make you far better as to what you understand about our culture and why and who we are as a people and a tribe, kind of.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: That's really good advice, especially if you're kind of on the fence is this job for me. Call and talk to people, Go visit your local district or office and talk to people about that too. But I like that idea of just reading about it too. And also what makes it really hard and difficult, the flexibility also makes it fun and exciting as well. Because you never know when you go to a fire, you never know what you're, you're getting into until you're there.
[00:26:18] Speaker C: Right. If you kind of soak yourself into it. It's the beauty of the job is, is going through that with other people and who knows where we'll be tonight or tomorrow morning. And that's such a cool part about the job. And you're not just going to be sitting at a desk for many years in your career, maybe towards the end, but you know, that's, you'll be thankful.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: For towards the end.
Yeah. And, and actually a lot of times we'll ask on this podcast, we've asked a lot of people like, what, what is your favorite thing about this job? And what do you remember the most? And it really comes down to the people you work with. A lot of times that's what always end up talking about.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: Always.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: So you've. So the moral of this is you gotta like people. Yes.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And be determined to help them.
[00:27:12] Speaker C: Yeah. It's a, it's a life of service. It's a, it's a career that's very, very fulfilling, very rewarding. And, and you'll make lifelong friends and also have life experiences that will change you as a person. And it's not just the people that you'll meet on your cruise that you work on or in the offices you work in or dispatch centers, but it's the people that you come into contact through incidents. You really bond over extreme circumstances, which is a really unique thing that you, that not everybody gets to encounter. So.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: And obviously you see a lot of country. Right. I mean, you don't, like you said, you don't know where you're going tomorrow and.
[00:27:53] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:54] Speaker D: Okay. I know that we, we've kind of already mentioned about the eccentricities of USA jobs.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: That's a nice way to put it.
[00:28:03] Speaker D: Yeah, I was trying to be diplomatic.
[00:28:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:06] Speaker D: Yeah. But I just want to make sure that we cover everything there and that.
Are there any other things that you haven't mentioned yet about like commonly missed details that you see with first time applicants that you'd like to mention? Just have people really keep an eye out for.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: I think same as before. I'll just say it again. That way when people are listening, it doesn't hurt to say it a couple of times so they can catch it. But the dates are the big thing. Hours are the second biggest thing to write someone out and then details. Right. Of your position. But I also think it's really hard for all of us to read through a full announcement. Right. We're supposed to keep them under five pages, there's requirements that we have to have. Like, they're rarely under five pages. It's a lot of things to read. It's almost like a foreign language. But you're going to catch a few things in there that we're asking you specifically to do. And that's going to prevent you from getting screened out too. Right. Like we ask you about the hours and then we ask you to answer a couple questions. Did you put the hours in your resume? And everyone says yes. And then all of a sudden you get through the system and it's like, why was I rated out? Well, because you didn't actually add your hours to the resume. So I think the big thing is if you can work through the, through the announcement itself, that will also help you give, get like a better idea and try to catch like a few of those things that you like, maybe just missed somewhere else. So just one more chance.
[00:29:26] Speaker C: Yep, I agree with that. And I always tell folks, pull the announcement up and print it off. Pick a highlighter and highlight the things in there that seem to be important.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: And then make sure, not plagiarism, but make sure that somehow, some way, those, that kind of a theme is in your resume and that it fits in there. And then from a selecting officials perspective, some of the classic things that we see are phone numbers that aren't actually connected to anyone or anything.
Misspellings on personal emails, or they use a government email. We need a personal email. And that's really common that our emails don't go through and then we don't know how to get ahold of somebody. Phone numbers for references and current supervisors that are actually able to reach that person. Really important that, excuse me, that all those things fall in line. And then I see kind of a overwhelming number of what I would call like an incomplete resume too, where you could tell they were working on it and they just kind of stopped and they didn't finish things like extracurricular activities or whatever. So really just follow through with what your resume is. And so it's complete. But those contacts super, super important because we might really like your resume. And if we can't get ahold of you or your references, it makes it really, really hard for us to select you.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: And I will add on because there's a lot of people that tend to retire or go to another agency and the numbers don't stay the same. So if they're gone, you can make a note to say this is a good contact. Now this is the person that was there before in case there's a way to get a hold of them. But at least they're getting a hold of someone that knows something about what you've done. So.
[00:31:15] Speaker C: Yep, exactly.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: If you have to have a second.
[00:31:18] Speaker C: Option, another big one. So I just gotta mention this. Drug tests come up. If you do get selected, you're gonna be drug tested. And this comes up all the time. They have a home address. So the drug tests are gonna be like positioned somewhere close to that home address, typically within a reasonable drive. And if you're from Illinois and you decide to go to Cabo for two months to go surfing right in the middle of the winter, you're going to miss all that stuff. So if you're going to go world traveling or go to college or something happens and that's your parents home address, it needs to be even if you break it up by dates like I'll be at this one for these months and this one for these months where we contact you and where you're going to be is sort of helpful for the winter months during the hiring process because some of that stuff gets really challenging if you're not where your address on your resume states.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Yeah, and then we've been on the HR side and security side. I think they're noticing that that's happening a lot more. So I think there's double and triple checks on where are you currently right now and where will you be for the next three days? So some lessons learned that way. But yeah, it doesn't hurt to mention somewhere that you're going to be in some places. But hopefully like that's been worked on since last year that there's some triple checks going on.
[00:32:37] Speaker A: So is there a way for somebody like maybe they don't know and then they have this trip plan that they already put in their resume. There's no way for somebody to like contact, say hey, I'm going to be.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: I think when the managers get ready to. And there's a lot of assumptions, right. And people are going to do something different. I just don't want people to like all of a sudden because of this panic and try to put like five different addresses because like the security office themselves who's putting in the drug test will try to reach out by the number that we have, right. To get a hold of them. So it's just one of those things where if they can't get a hold of them, how long do we wait? That type of thing. But yeah, last year I think some things came to light as far as not assuming because drug tests went to like another group in our organization. So I think it was just almost like we. They almost had to call every time or check with HR and we would put it in our notes.
[00:33:25] Speaker C: So I think the bottom line is just good communication. If you get contacted by hr.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: Or select someone official, just tell them what you're doing for the winter and where you're going to be. And if you got. If you're hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, just tell them. And so people know and we can plan around it. That's actually happened to me like four times. Hiring people.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Excellent. Well, what are some additional benefits you can get from a career in FIRE that new applicants may not know about, but also for returning applicants. I mean there's a lot of people that have a couple seasons under their belt and may not know about the benefits that they're actually getting.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: I'll speak more to like the actual HR side, but I think it's. We talk about benefits and it's hard to really understand what that means until you see it. And I think it not to still Ben's story. So he'll keep that. But I think it's once you get to compare it to something else and you realize how great it actually was. But we obviously have like the health insurance and the retirement. We have a thrift savings plan which is our 401k and the government does match. And then we also have eligibility to apply for other jobs. Right. Like once you're in the federal government, you're in. Right. And then depending on how long you've been in, you get like reinstatement for life. So you can kind of bob and weave and try other things, but then you can come back and it's just. It's nice to be able to have almost a like, I don't want to say easier path, but a path that's open to you because you've been with the government for that long. Right. So there are definite benefits to that.
[00:34:57] Speaker C: Yeah. I unique with me leaving FIRE and then coming back, it definitely changed my perspective. I got into the government when I was 19 and you just kind of take things for granted that this is the way it is. And then you get out into the private sector and I had my own business and realize number one how good the benefits were with the federal government, from the health insurance to the retirement to all of that and how affordable it is, how all encompassing it is as far as many facets of it that really cover your life. Well, it's not kind of A one stop package. Like a lot of private sector things are, the government benefits really hit on many, many areas that can be very beneficial for you. And when I came back, I remember I just had this sense of like I took a huge pay cut going from owning my own business to coming back as a GS4, which is how I came back in and but I remember the benefits almost it didn't make the difference up, but it made it doable for my family. And I like the benefits really, really were a big deal for us and it's just kind of unmatched in the private sector. And so I walk around with a ton of appreciation for what that has done for me. But I think that one of the best things kind of outside of the raw numbers of it is just general sense of purpose and service. It's just a very, very fulfilling career and you don't have to be out digging line for this to feel this way. I know my wife and daughter are both dispatchers and their sense of purpose and duty is just as high as the firefighter. And my son started out working in the fire cash system and he felt that way. And there's a lot of different jobs. It's not just firefighting, it's like whether it's hr, there's a lot of support jobs now there's dispatch. So if you get into one vein and you like it, one of the huge benefits is diversity of jobs that you can move into once you start. It's not a one lane road. There's a lot of whys in the road that you can take and find a better fit or if your body takes a toll, you have options. It's not just going to come to an end for you and which is a really, really, I think rewarding and pretty cool part about these jobs. And then when you combine that with how it takes care of you and your life with the benefits and then the purpose of service that it gives you, it's just really, really a cool package and I'm very grateful. It's given my family a really fantastic life which is probably why I'm in workforce development now because I pretty passionate about what the job is and what it can do for people. And I got a little tiny story about if I can about I was in REI in July. I'm an operations section chief on a complex incident management team and I had to run into REI between assignments to grab a piece of camping gear. And I'm at, I was at the checkout and those REI folks are always nice and they're discussing, like, why you bought this piece of gear. And he's like, are you going camping? And I said, well, in general, yeah, for a few weeks. And, oh, that sounds awesome. Where are you going? And I told him, I'm going to Oregon. And he asked. He just kept asking questions, which led to I was going to Oregon to manage some fires out there for. For wildland firefighting. And he said, oh, I've always wanted to do that. And he got talking to me, and. And he asked me the question, what, you know, what was the best part? What do you like most about your job? And I said, serving my country, really, in the way that I can. And he asked if I could help him get into fire. And I didn't think he would ever follow up on this. And so I reluctantly gave him my personal cell number, and I said, don't call me until September 1st. And lo and behold, he reached out to me almost on the money, on time, and. And he said, hey, I don't know if you remember me. I'm that guy from rei. Can you help me get into fire? And so I sent him these long series of texts on how to get in, build a profile in USA jobs, build a resume, take these classes. And it's just a real. I wouldn't do that if I begrudgingly didn't like my job. Right. Why would I take the time to talk to a cashier from REI about what we get to do? And I want other people to feel the reward of this job and the community and the tribe that you get with it. And so I hope he gets a job. I really do. And I hope someday I get to run into him out on the fire somewhere and see that it's been successful for him, too. So it's pretty cool that I work in a job that I want other people to encounter what I've experienced, too.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: And I will say fighting fires or HR might not be for everyone. Right. So I think these podcasts kind of get to a different community of people, but it's not just about being a firefighter. I mean, I am honored to be able to, like, keep people, like, working and fighting fire and, like, safe. And, you know, the more that we can get hired, the better it is. Like, the crews don't, you know, I mean, you have to keep them staffed up, and you have to, like, make sure that they have, like, time for themselves and, you know, trying to make sure that everyone has some sort of break. But I think, you know, to what Ben was saying, I Think the diversity of jobs, like, you don't have to do either of our jobs. Right. We've got contracting and we've got people in the cash, like you said, dispatch. And it's always nice to, like, even if you want a season or two in fighting fire, but I think you have to be open to the options of, like, what could happen after that. Like, you can go into training and teaching, you can go into our telecom specialists and the radio cache or the Ross stations. Right. So I think there's just a lot of options that you could kind of take from that and learn from fire and being on the line, but then see where else you can go from there.
[00:41:03] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who, she actually retired from law enforcement and is now on working on a team and support function, driving and now working in the equipment shop.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: Working on some qualifications there to support incident management teams.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: So there's a lot of different directions you can go.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: We need lots of people to do a lot of different things. So, yeah, come one, come all.
[00:41:29] Speaker D: Yeah. Like, even if you get started on a crew or whatever, you just get exposed to this amazing network of people. You can learn about all the different facets of not only fire management, but land management in general. Like, there's so many things that the BLM does, so you can definitely find your niche no matter what.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think just one more thing because I was trying to figure out where to put this because to me this almost like paints the perfect picture of like, you don't know where your career could lead you. But our director started as a firefighter and then smokejumper. Right. Well, that smokejumper then went into budget, like may have been an interest at some point, but like ended up in budget and is now our fire director. Right. So they're an ses. ER started out as probably some firefighter as a three or four. Like, I haven't really asked him, but I mean, you know, he worked his way all the way up, but maybe when he started that was not even like part of what he thought his career path would be. So, I mean, you're not just held to being a firefighter. So I think that's really cool too. We've got a lot of things here at Nipsey and a lot of things BLM wide where people can like plug and play into lots of different areas and detail and try different jobs out. So that's a good opportunity as well. Yeah.
[00:42:41] Speaker D: You never locked in little box. You can branch out. Yeah.
Do you have any Other like, I guess, words of wisdom or advice that, that you wish that you had heard when you first were getting started in fire.
[00:42:56] Speaker C: I'll go first. I think when I first got into fire, I thought that the program, the organization would sort of build me into the complete person that I needed to be good at my job. And there is a lot of support, there's a lot of training, there's a lot that comes along with it. But in a long career in wildland fire, wherever you are, if you're in dispatch, if you're, you know, out on the line, if you're in support functions, it's a long career and I really give the piece of advice that it pays and it's good investment to work on yourself as a person and not just expect the job itself is going to build you into who you are, going to be the best version of who you are. It takes that self investment that your first many years in fire might be seasonal where you get the winters off and use that time to build yourself better. And I know when I first started in fire, I didn't do that and I just kind of was along for the ride and I thought the program would build me into who I am. And then I realized, no, I need to put a lot of work in to myself too and so that I have more to offer so that I can be a manager that is efficient and effective and a good communicator. And they're not going to send you to speech classes if you're not a good public speaker and you need to get into that, you're going to have to develop that yourself, you know, and some of that self reflection, some of that self growth is really, really important and this job is very supportive of people doing that. But you're going to have to put some of that effort in yourself.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: So I think that goes to like building your resume and things like that too, right? I mean, it seems like such an easy task. You're just putting some things on a piece of paper and like, why would anyone care what's really on there? But I mean, getting through HR is hard. And we're not trying to make it hard, but we are asking you for specific things and we're trying to give you as many warning shots for what those things are. But it's. You do have to take the time to read the resume or read the announcement. And I think those are the things where it's just like putting more effort in, in the beginning to make sure you have a good product will probably save You a lot of time in the end. And then I also. HR isn't always right. Right. We miss things on applications as well. So when you get.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: We're human too.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: We are human too.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: Human resources.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: And we. We are juggling a lot of things and looking at a lot of items and, you know, we get a phone call and get distracted. I. Things happen. So it could be an error in the way you were coded or the letter that was sent to you. And really we told you you were missing something on your resume, but it may have been like you forgot to attach something else. Right. Like every once in a while there's just an error. So if you think that there isn't something quite right with the message that you received, call and ask and just let us know that you are wondering and trying to like, piece things together so you can do better next time. Right. And then that way we can take a little bit more time and look and see and give you a little bit more detail and help out that way as well. So give us the opportunity to like, either fix something we missed and. Or ask to get clarification on what you could have done. And I guess it's hard for us to say, like, we're not going to tell you that you weren't selected because of X, Y and Z in your resume, but we can help you get through the HR system, which I think is hard because those notifications are very general. So if you don't understand it, please just please ask. Otherwise you're going to keep getting it and not knowing what to do about it.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: And sometimes things are. You write something out and it makes sense to you and maybe the person reviewing it doesn't see the connection between the experience levels and things like that. So that's another good thing to point out. I had a friend like that too. She goes, I have the experience. They're saying I was lacking the experience and time in. And it was in there and it was just pointing it out to them. Oh, we missed that.
[00:46:46] Speaker B: Yep. And there. I mean, we have all sorts of levels of people doing staffing and reviewing resumes. And I am not a SME subject matter expert. Sorry, we'll spell that out. I am not a subject matter expert in everything that I'm reviewing. But I also, like, as an applicant, you don't want to assume that I should be able to read between the lines. So that's kind of where I'm talking about, like adding more detail. But it doesn't mean that I can't miss something or miss A few lines where it is like really the same thing, but I just didn't know. So, yep, asking questions is good, especially.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: When you're reviewing hundreds of applications.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: But we kind of talked a little bit yesterday about this podcast and what to expect and talking about. Yeah. The. Where your application goes. Yeah. It's not a machine, it's not a robot reviewing it. There are really people behind it. So.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: And maybe not for every agency. We'll speak to BLM and Department of Interior. But yeah, I. It is tricky. And just because I review something one way doesn't mean another specialist is going to review it the same way. It's how we interpret something. So again, it doesn't mean that we can't be wrong or it doesn't mean that we can't explain something to you where you just thought one thing or another. Right. So.
[00:47:57] Speaker C: And if you. I see a lot of resumes too, where people just copy and paste the position description off of the posting. Don't do that. But like I said earlier, I would just highlight, again, set yourself apart from everybody else that qualifies for the job. Because If I get 40 to 100 applicants for one job, what's going to set you apart from the other person? Because HR has told me that all of these people qualify. So be creative and be proud of who you are and put that in your resume.
[00:48:27] Speaker B: And I think one more tidbit that just kind of when Ben was saying something, don't copy and paste the duties. Right. But at the same time, again, if you read the application, we are sending you things for you to use to help build a better resume and application. Right. So if we list those duties out, that's what you're going to be doing in your next position. Well, tell us what you've done in your current position that already indicates that you either can or have done them.
This is the kicker right here. This is the key to specializing or the key to HR is specialized experience. Every federal announcement has specialized experience in it. What we're saying by that is we are looking for something at the next lower level for you to qualify for the job that we've posted.
Why we want to know that is we want to understand, like, what you've currently done or done in your past to tell us that you have the experience, not knowledge, skills or ability, but the experience to do work that's going to prepare you for the job that we're announcing. That specialized experience statement, again, do not copy and paste. But if I'm asking you to do something and explain how you've done it a year, make sure that that's included in your resume. I mean that's, it's hard because you assume because someone says I fought fires, like why did that not clarify for that? But we're looking for a firefighter that's also a training specialist that needs to understand X, Y and Z. And you don't include anything in there. Right. About how you've taught classes or helped create PowerPoints for classes or anything like that. Right. And then the third piece, we obviously have those questionnaires in there. If you go to those, that's also kind of a way for you to brainstorm what to put in your resume. If we're asking you a question about it, why would you not want to explain to us like what you've done in that area? So those are the three kind of areas to help you create a resume and build a resume, to at least.
[00:50:13] Speaker C: Get started and to highlight what she just said.
[00:50:16] Speaker A: Oh, great tips.
[00:50:17] Speaker C: So those specific duties, for example, one of them says that you have experience working with hand tools. Let's say that you put in your resume that you work for a carpenter or you worked on a ranch. Don't just assume that HR knows that that means you work with hand tools on the ranch. You need to say that I worked on a ranch and I have experience with hand tools in a bullet pointed item or in the description. That is what's really key about it. Don't assume that the HR person's going to know that you knew how to do that.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: So I know how to use a.
[00:50:48] Speaker B: Shovel and a plaster and I think it is sad and hopefully it doesn't get down to like the nitty gritty quite like that. But I mean it's a good example of something that you would think that someone would understand. But it's not our job to right. Explain or interpret or you know, read between the lines. We, I do try, me personally as a staffer, try to make sure I'm reading thoroughly and like trying to understand what this person is telling me. But at the same time, if we have more applicants and you know, there are certain agencies that get a thousand at a time if yours isn't up there and they have to like pick it apart, probably a lot easier for them to be like, it's not in there and not put in the extra effort. Right. So make it easier for us to send it through. Not a second glance and off you go. So help us help you.
[00:51:38] Speaker A: In closing, is there anything else you would like to Add something that we didn't talk about, like, say, after. So your application, you got your application in, you get on the cert, what happens then?
[00:51:53] Speaker B: I think that's the hard part. Well, yes, in closing, I think it's good for people to have an understanding of federal work, that we are doing things as quickly as we can. And yes, it might be because of workload or it might just be because of processes. Right. So once we send you to the manager who's going to review your resume, they may not need to interview you. They may do a resume interview. Right. Come up with a couple applicants that they like best, do reference checks, and that's how they make a selection. So it's not always a phone call interview. Sometimes they will. But, like, don't assume kind of any part of how that's going to go. Be ready for them to call and ask for an interview and be ready for that as well. The other piece is if you're selected, I think understanding that nothing happens in the next day or two, and whether we're extremely efficient and it can happen in two weeks, or whether, like, we are now, like so many people in that things are delayed, like, you just. Unfortunately, it's a waiting game and it's so hard to say because we just. It's out of our control. Like, it's out of the manager's control. It's out of HR's control. Like, there's just so many steps for new employees to have to get fingerprints and pictures and drug tests and things like that that it really does.
[00:53:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: And I mean, you're number 700 and there's just a line. Right. And then the lucky people that got in at 50, you know, but it's not. The managers didn't take too long. HR didn't take too long. It just. Sometimes it is that way. And at some point right before the season, there's just a backlog. So I think really understanding that, like, we haven't forgotten about you checking in doesn't hurt either. But yeah, the timeline, I think, is a good way to kind of wrap your head around that this isn't going to be tomorrow, but it is going to be a process and it is. I think it's worth it. So, yeah, hopefully everyone's okay waiting it out, but if you can mentally prepare that it is going to be a wait, then that's a little bit easier too.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And really look at the job announcement, closure dates. Some of them are shorter times, some of them are longer times, but Also that first 50, you mentioned 50. A lot of positions have, you know, this is available to the first 50 applicants or it'll close after the first 50. So that's another good reason to get your. Get your application in as soon as.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Possible and have it ready.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: Right. Have it 90. Have it 95% ready. Tweak those couple things based off of what I said earlier, specialized experience, duties and the questionnaire. Right. That's your 5% that needs to be tweaked and then everything else is ready to go. So.
[00:54:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:22] Speaker C: And I would just back on. Oh, go ahead.
[00:54:25] Speaker A: I was just going to say it's going to take some time to. Especially if you have like during hiring season, you have multiple jobs out there, so expect a little longer time. But go ahead, Ben.
[00:54:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I was going to. Two things. Be patient. Just be patient. And it's worth it in the end. So it's just going to take time. You fill out an application in October and you'll still be doing random little HR things when you onboard in the spring. So that's just the way it goes and it's worth it. And then the other part is do your part. So if you start getting emails and you have an onboarding dashboard, it is so common that people blame HR for the time frame when they're not doing their part on their end. So make sure you are constantly in your email that you're following the instructions and if something seems held up, call and ask a question and they can probably help you out. So very common that people don't follow through on their own end with the dashboard onboarding process. And so just be patient. It's a process, but it's worth it in the end.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: Yeah. They don't talk about all the government paperwork for nothing.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: Right.
Well, and then if you don't make it through and don't make the assert, you know, give HR a call, understand why you didn't and maybe that job's closed, but there might be another job opening you can try again.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: Yep. And it is hard. And it's one of those things where I would imagine if some HR specialists were listening to me say this, like, call us. It is hard. We can't answer every question. And there really is. I mean, for the most part, once you see the response, if you don't understand, ask. Right. But there's probably other federal workers that can help explain. It's just, it's a language we try to make easy, but it doesn't mean that you understand it when you haven't seen it before or been Part of the federal government. So, yeah, if you think that you have the hours on your resume and you think you have the details and titles and grades and all of that stuff, but it still says something was missing on your resume, then it doesn't hurt to come back, to ask, to be like, can you point me at exactly what you were talking about? Because I'm missing it. And sadly, sometimes it's. You have the dates on everything except for the one we needed, and somehow that one, three jobs down is missing the month. And like, we just couldn't tell that you had it for over a year. I mean, it can be as small as that. And it's just kind of hard when you're looking at a resume, panicked, trying to get it in to see that you missed something like that.
[00:56:51] Speaker C: So, yeah, and there's a lot on these job postings. There's like, if you don't make it, there's this temptation to say there's an engine job and there's 40 locations within the BLM. It's a temptation to, you know, apply for a lot of those. I just try to, I don't discourage people from doing that, but I encourage them to Google these communities if you've never heard of them before, like, actually have an interest in working where you're going to work. Because if you get, I, I can't tell you how many times I've called people and they say, where is this? I, I didn't even know I applied there. Well, you click the button because I got your application, so. So it's helpful. I think a little bit less is more, actually. Apply where you want to work and where you're willing to go and live and even if it's remote and be committed to that and it's a process, so you'll eventually get there. If you don't get through the first time, ask questions with hr, ask somebody who's gone through the process and learn from it and you'll get there.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah, we want people to succeed. So like I said, if an HR specialist heard me right now, being like, call us just, you know, but it does. It's a lot. But the more that we can, like catch someone kind of in this process, it's going to save them how many applications and how many times we're going to have to review them and things like that too. So we want people to be successful. I have a little bit of a twist maybe on what Ben said, because my other thought would be if you're having a hard time getting a job but you're making it through every time. You could also look at some of the harder to fill places. Right. It's not that you're not a good applicant, but if you're applying to somewhere and like Billings probably gets more applicants then somewhere in Nevada. Right. There's a few place like more remote. Yeah.
[00:58:31] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:58:31] Speaker B: I was like, where were we just talking about today? Battle Mountain.
[00:58:34] Speaker A: That always comes to mind because that's kind of a pretty remote place.
[00:58:36] Speaker B: It's so hard for us to fill. So if you're really like wanting to get in, and again, I'm not saying that you're not a good candidate that shouldn't be able to be seen in Billings, but also think about some of those locations that are a little harder to be like, okay, can I do it for a couple years? And not to say that you like would end up leaving, maybe you'd end up liking it, but at the same time, think about some of those locations to be like, okay, I've missed it the last couple years. Like, what can I do and what can I tweak and what am I like, willing to like, kind of bend a little bit on and see different part of the country than I thought I'd like or whatever. But yeah, try some of those because I do know that there's some crews that are struggling because of the location. They can't get people because of the location. So it might not be an easy push if you don't love the location. But we also don't want people coming in just to leave the next second either. But at the same time, you know, taking some of those jobs to even see if you like to fight fire and what that really like, looks like and then kind of take it from there too.
[00:59:28] Speaker C: So oftentimes those hard to fill locations have more opportunities because of a smaller staff too. And there's trade offs with that. You go to a big location with a ton of staff all in the same location, you're kind of in a pool. Or if you go somewhere that's more remote, you're going to have maybe some more opportunities to get hands on that you wouldn't elsewhere. So there's pluses and minuses. There might not be a coffee shop and a brewery there, but it might be opportunities that you really need for your career.
[00:59:56] Speaker B: So. But there might be a lot of rivers and mountains and hunting, you know.
[01:00:00] Speaker C: Exactly.
[01:00:00] Speaker B: And you get the other side of things.
[01:00:02] Speaker C: So.
[01:00:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, the sunsets. Yes, anything. Locations.
[01:00:09] Speaker D: Nice.
[01:00:11] Speaker A: Well, that's good for closing.
[01:00:13] Speaker B: Perfect.
[01:00:14] Speaker A: Where we're yeah, time flies. Like I told you, all good.
But some other things just want to mention, I know you mentioned our web, the website, the BLM jobs portal. There's a lot of great information, I mean a ton of information on just careers in general on the careers page on nipsey.gov and a lot of different links to different resources. Human Resource has a page there too that has a lot of different factors sheets on the types of benefits of having a career in federal government. And one thing we didn't, I don't think we touched on just the paid leave too. You accumulate your sick leave, you accumulate holiday pay and annual even. So that's a big benefit that a lot of private industries don't have.
[01:00:59] Speaker B: And the holidays, I was like, do you mention holidays to firefighters? You don't get to take some of them.
[01:01:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:01:04] Speaker B: But some of the professions, you get to enjoy them. But yes, yes, you are right.
[01:01:07] Speaker A: And then some holidays you get holiday pay if you're working. So that kind of makes up for a little bit.
But I want to thank you both for being here today to talk about the hiring process and giving the great tips you gave for people to be more competitive in their application and things they can look at to remember to do and not to do when they're applying for jobs. For our 31st episode of Wildfire Matters.
[01:01:33] Speaker D: Yeah for our listeners, if you have questions, comments or even suggestions on different topics for our future podcasts, please email them to blm_fa_nipsey_comments lm.gov and use wildfire Matters podcast in the subject line. To learn more about NFC or the BLM, please visit our website nfc.gov and follow us at BLM FIRE on Facebook X and Inst.
And we want to thank you all for listening. Please join us next time and we hope to spark a conversation about all hazard incident response and how wildfire resources are used in all hazard incident situations such as hurricane relief efforts.
[01:02:14] Speaker B: Thank you ladies so much.
[01:02:16] Speaker C: Thank you.
[01:02:17] Speaker A: Until then, stay safe and be Wildfire aware.
