Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the 28th episode of Wildfire Matters, the podcast that covers all aspects of wildland fire management for the Bureau of Land Management, or BLM. We talk with the people who help manage and protect our public lands, many of which dedicate their lives to the profession. Today, Piper and I are talking with Brandon Williams, twin Falls helattack supervisor, and Taylor Cleland, assistant supervisor. And you might hear a little feedback here and there because they are actually on fire assignments. Brandon is currently in Utah and sitting in the back of a helicopter, so he might have to take off, literally. We're hoping to get him here for the full time. And Taylor is on the road heading to New Mexico. So welcome, guys.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Thanks for having us. Kerry. It's a pleasure to be here and to be able to talk about wildfire matters and the helattac programs as a whole, for sure.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:01:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Welcome, guys.
[00:01:03] Speaker D: Glad to be here.
[00:01:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Before we get started, I want to take a moment to recognize all of our fire personnel, obviously, fire activities gearing up. I mean, Brandon and Taylor. Brandon's on a fire. Taylor's on his way to another fire, has already been on one. So it's a very busy time of year. It's a lot of work that goes into getting prepared for fire and going out on assignment and gearing up to do this for the next several months. So coming up on July 2, we have national Wildland Firefighter day. We've already been celebrating or getting ready to celebrate for that. We just had our inaugural fireline five k here in Boise, and we are still holding the virtual of fireline five k. So you. You can go ahead and run, walk, hike, or jog any 3.1 mile route. And you can register online and then send us your photos on the nifty dot gov website.
Yeah. So send us your pictures and let's get ready to go.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: All right. Yeah. Hey, if you guys have time, you know, just throw that in there, too. You're doing a podcast so I can run around camp?
[00:02:13] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: We'll just run around the hella base here for a bit, right? Yeah.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: But, yeah. Great to have you guys here. And first off, we want to hear a little bit more about yourselves and what attracted you to Wildland Fire and how you got started. I know you guys have an interesting story because you've been friends for a long time and it's great that you're still fighting fire together. So, Brandon, we'll start with you.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: So how did I get into fire, man? Well, I grew up as a team kind of player. Played a lot of sports in high school and stuff, stuff like that from, since I've been a kid kind of doing that. So really, like, the team aspect of life and fire, it's a huge team game, no matter what. It's kind of funny because my mom's the one that suggested that I get into fire, and now she hates that I'm in fire and gone all the time. But she quickly realized how much I loved it and how much I do get that kind of team aspect, the adrenaline rush, like when you're playing sports and stuff like that, to work with your friends and to really get a one purpose, one state kind of goal to get done. I mean, it takes a ton of people to get some of these fires out, as you can see, some of these big ones. It takes a whole bunch of people all working towards the same goal, same team. So it's something. I mean, I was in college, I wasn't playing sports anymore. I was mowing lawns. It was a great time, honestly, which is the simple life. But getting into fire. I applied my first year, didn't get in. It was a lot more competitive. I would say back then, there wasn't as many jobs out and stuff like that. There was a lot of people staying in the game, and now we're hopefully getting a lot more people into the fire realm and stuff like that. But poor Taylor's had to work with me for a long time now.
Before this, we worked at Claude Sports at a ski shop, and now we're working together as stooping assistant. And I want to call it the greatest job ever. And being able to work with one of my best friends and be able to run a crew and go fight fire and still have that team goal and that team aspect of everything. And really, fire is fun if you get into it. It's a lot of hard work sometimes, but it can be a really fun atmosphere. And you get to work with different guys, new guys that come in every year, you get to learn about them and you make lifelong friends, no matter how you go about it.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Exactly. Big fire family always run into people, you know, people you met on fires and so. And again.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: You know, like me, I. We went and talked to you guys last year and like, I need to talk to these guys again about their story.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, fire is a big. It's a big entity, but it's a pretty small community when you really think about it. You've always run into some of the same people every different fire. So it's a good thing to see.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: How about you, Taylor?
Top that.
[00:05:09] Speaker D: So, a pretty similar story to Brandon, or Skinny, as we call him, played sports in high school.
Granite. Skinny and I played against each other in high school and then didn't really realize it until a few years down the road. Once we started working at Claude's and doing that thing, and we were like, you went to high school here? And I went here and, oh, yeah, we played against each other. So that team aspect was definitely a big part of it. Started doing fuels here in twin falls, started on a fuels module, and then spent a little bit of time on hot shots. And then ten years ago, skinny talked to me and was like, hey, this hello tech. Things pretty dang cool and been here ever since.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: So, yeah, so you guys both have been doing it around ten years.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: It's got a little bit more time. This will be 17 seasons. Started in engines and then never looked back. When I went to hell attack.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Hello tech is pretty special, actually.
[00:06:12] Speaker D: And then for me, 2011 was my first season, so, yeah, been in a little while.
Yeah. But found it. Found a good home and really, really love working with these guys that we have here.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Looks like we lost Taylor for a bit. Hopefully he'll be able to rejoin us. So, Brandon, hey, might be all you.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Hey, we got this.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: All right. So one of the questions we had is, what is it like being on Hellotack? You talked about it being like one of the greatest jobs. You started on engine and you never looked back when you went back to hell attack, but. Or got onto hell attack, but what is it like being a crew member and then also supervising the crew?
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Oh, man. So really, like, every day on hell attack, an old assistant that I had is. It's kind of like waking up to Christmas every day. You never know what's going to really happen. One day you could be like, we could be in Utah today, we could be transferred down to New Mexico by this evening. You don't really know where you're going to end up at the end of the day, but you know you're going to be doing something. There's a lot of stuff that you can help provide for different fires and stuff like that. I mean, one day you could be working as a crew member, just working the same fire. The next day you could be the IC four on a fire, or you could be a heavy equipment operator. Not operator, heavy equipment boss. Excuse me, doing that. So everything. Like, that's why we kind of say, like, every day is kind of like Christmas. There's a bunch of different roles that you can help provide, help support fires in many different ways. Being a crew member was my favorite time because I just knew, hey, I had to get my stuff and be ready to jump in the helicopter, and the manager was going to be like, hey, we're heading to this fire and you guys know your roles and you need to do your job, and you hit the ground running and start fighting fire. And, I mean, ultimately, I think Taylor, I don't want to speak for him, but that's what we like to do. It's the reason we're in this job. But being a crew member is always going to keep you on your toes as well. You know, we try to give them as much information as we can to give them the best setup, but sometimes we don't have that information. So you got to kind of fly by the seat of your pants. And here we go. We got this. Okay, we're rolling up on a fire. You get an aerial view a few times or lap around it, and then we're going to pick a place to land and plug in and do it safely.
I guess going into the supervising of the crew, trying to have that 20,000 foot view all the time and kind of keep it then everybody. Taylor does a really good job with helping me do this as well. It's just keeping everybody engaged in what we're trying to do. And eye on the ball, I would say is a huge factor on that. And crew safety. I mean, we talk about it with our guys at the beginning of the season, and ultimately, I want everybody to come home with all their fingers, all their toes, not hurt. Hopefully they had a good season, got some good fire experience, and that they really get the aspect of aviation and how we can be such a different tool. I mean, there's a lot of different roles that we can fill and a lot of places that we can help, whether it's put together a crew. And we have eight to ten guys out on the line helping with shot crews and stuff like that, or running helispots, running a helibase, managing a ship, doing all these different aspects. Why, I kind of call us a swiss army knife, so that you can do a whole bunch of different utility work and help out with different entities of all fire and doing it that way. So trying to keep, as a supervisor, keep all those guys and getting people out to do different roles and stuff and gain experience. Like Taylor's on the road right now to go do a task force role and trying to get him more experience in that stuff so that we can bring guys up so that we can try and ultimately be the best that we can be as a firefighter and help our coal fire program as a team.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Awesome. I will say hell attack for me, I did get my crew member position, and probably one of my favorite, most memorable assignments for fire was a hell attack assignment I had up in Garden Valley area, and it was awesome. We got to do so many different things, from getting supplies to crews to offloading supplies to transport personnel on multiple different fires on this. It was a really fun working with a lot of different helicopters, too, at the hell base. So, yeah, there's a lot of cool things about what you can do with hell attack.
And Taylor, we kind of lost you. I know you said you started in 2011, and we asked Brandon, what's it like being a helicopter crew member? Hello, attack crew member and supervising the crew.
[00:11:23] Speaker D: Yeah, I think from the Heckham perspective, like Skinny said, and I guess I should have prefaced, this is the only people that call Brandon. Brandon is his mom and his wife, and that's usually when he's in trouble. So if I refer to Skinny, that's. That's second nature.
Skinny is Brandon. So.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: So do we need to start calling him skinny?
[00:11:50] Speaker D: I mean, that. That's probably, and I would say probably 90% of the fire community knows him is skinny. So maybe that's a good stroke. But, yeah, from the crew member, the heck em perspective, it is really all about being dynamic, rolling with the punches. Like Skinny said, we could be jumping on the helicopter and responding to an IA and chasing the desert fire or a timber fire. Yeah, that's the. Everyday is like Christmas. That's a real thing. And we say that a lot. You never know what's gonna happen. You could be in Richfield, Utah, one day and on your way to New Mexico the next day.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: I guess it's different kind of Christmas when people think about Christmas.
[00:12:42] Speaker D: It is, it is. But it's. It's our Christmas. And I think that's one of the things that we really love about the peloton tac, is you're not doing the same exact thing every day. It's going to vary. And when you do do the same thing every day, once you get used to that and you're like, this is what we're doing, then the fire gods throw you a curveball and they're like, nope, you're going to go to Alaska or go do something that you totally wouldn't expect. So staying prepared for all possibilities is a really big part of our job. And one of the best parts, I think.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: So being in a helicopter or working on a helicopter crew would obviously take a little bit different training than a fire position that's on the ground. So can you talk about what kind of training is required to become a helitech crew member?
Brandon, we can start with you.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll let Taylor take this.
[00:13:41] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:43] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. So we prefer our folks and I think most of hell attack crews are like this is have one season, get, you know, that s get a season under your belt, kind of get a lay of the land as far as normal fires things, knowing all, all of that stuff. And then outside of that going into say you have one season under your belt, you come to a hell attack crew and they're gonna put you through s 200 7271, which is like basic air ops. And then helicopter crew member and really to kind of get, get your foot in the door as far as hello tech, that's kind of all you need. And I guess the reasoning behind that is there's a lot to learn aviation wise. There's a lot to learn fire wise. And it's pretty overwhelming to somebody that is brand new to both of those. That's a lot to take in. There's a lot to learn about the aviation stuff. So having those, at least a few of those fire slides, having a pretty decent foundation is pretty integral. It just gives that person a chance to succeed and a chance to flourish.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:15:05] Speaker D: Rookie. Rookie, man, they're going to have some big eyeballs for quite a while. So. Yeah. And then for us on Twin Falls, we kind of have a little bit of a path.
Kind of, kind of first year, 1st, 2nd year on Hellotack, we're going to be trying to get them proficient and qualified at HEcAm IC five, fft one and really getting that foundation super, super solid. So then you can move on to stuff like maybe helicopter manager, IC four crew boss. And then from there working on onto other stuff. You know, your task force, hella base manager division. Like one thing that I really love about our crew, just this year we have folks working on division GIS for fire med unit leader. And then also we have some, an individual working on their tanker based quality this year. So kind of once we get folks to that certain point where their foundation is very solid, then the world's kind of their oyster. They can find what interests them and we encourage them to go go chase those positions and those qualms and go do what they really enjoyed.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: So seems like you have on hell attack team, you might have a little bit more ability to do that, the different jobs than to be on, like, a hot shot crew, where you kind of have to have that whole crew out of the line. Like you guys sounds like. Like you, Taylor, you're taking off to another fire and leaving your crew behind on this other one. So it seems like you have a little bit of a little flexibility there, I guess, than maybe some other crews might. So that that's pretty cool.
[00:16:55] Speaker C: Is there a particular skill set or prior knowledge that you think would make a good hell attack crew member? Like, for someone who's interested in getting into hell attack, like, what kind of skill set or knowledge do you think would be helpful?
[00:17:11] Speaker B: I would say some good skill sets and knowledge. I mean, obviously the fire stuff, but if you have a passion for aviation and you have an interest in aviation, is a huge benefactor because you're going to be interested in that field, right? So if you have that passion, I mean, come and see how the whole wheel turns and how things kind of managed around here and going through that. But, I mean, we're always looking for some skilled people. I mean, you could go down the list of if you can weld, if you can just be kind of helpful in any way is a good factor of it. One thing I would say, though, is be physically fit because we might get a ride to that with the helicopter, but after that, it's what we call several legs. For the most part, we don't really have an engine or anything to come and pick us up. It's more of a, you're walking out until you run into your folks that are going to pick you up. So be physically fit would be one of the skill sets that I would say you'd want to have coming into it. And then any of the life skills that come around if you're a good mechanic, heck, I mean, we have stuff that breaks down all the time, so it'd be cool to have some mechanics that can help us fix our own trucks if we need to. In the middle of nowhere, definitely.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: So I know they're, like, talking about specialized skills, though. Things that you would learn. I think you learned this in that. Is it 270? Is that the air ops?
[00:18:41] Speaker D: Yeah. 270 would be the air ops, yeah.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Like how to do hover hookups and those types of things. Can you talk a little bit about those kind of specific skills, like working with the helicopter that you. Or training that you do? Because I don't remember when we came out to see you all and got some video of you doing your review. I guess and getting a ready to be signed off to be okay. You're good for the year to go out.
What are the types of things that you kind of look out for that.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So some of that stuff is going to be taught a lot in that 271 class as a Heckham and learning the setup of like setting up a bucket and hooking up. So like if you're not going to be on a helic crew and you need to hook up a cargo load or something on that, of knowing how swivels actually work and doing a manifest, adding up everything essentially from the belly of the helicopter to the end of the net, you need to have everything added up onto that regard so that when that helicopter comes to pick it up, we're accountable for all that weight because it's coming off the ground. Right. So that thing's pulling and sometimes it's high and hot. You don't have a whole lot of.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Pull and you have to consider in ground effect, out of ground effect where you're at, winds, all that stuff. Right?
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: What's the fuel? How much fuel on the helicopter?
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Yeah, fuel is a huge thing. And a lot of that's all taught in the heckham class and the basic air ops class as well. Kind of going through both of those classes. And Carrie, when you were watching us, yeah, we were getting ready for the season and one of the things that we pride ourselves on is we won't put ourselves up and available until, until we run through drill after drill after drill until it almost becomes second nature to every one of us, especially the new guys that come in. I mean, I can't tell you how many times they're like, I'll jump into the drills, too. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's, that's another step that we take or that's something. Just a, just a refresher, a reminder. And I think, I don't want to speak for Taylor, but I think all of our overhead jumps in. We all get like, oh, yeah, that's how we did it last year or that's how we make this work and go the smoothest that we can. And it just helps with the learning of younger guys, newer guys, and then it's a great refresher for us. But practice, practice, practice. Right.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Taylor and I both talked about the sports aspect. I mean, practice how you play. So I want to practice hard and make sure that it's good.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Well, and. Yeah. And not to run into the rotor.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Like knowing where to be.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Yeah, there are good. Yeah. Certain things you really do need to know.
[00:21:25] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: You don't want your head topped off.
[00:21:28] Speaker D: That's a big one.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: That's a big one. Yes.
[00:21:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Especially with aviation.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:35] Speaker C: You have to drill and drill and drill and make sure that you like. It's second nature and you're being as safe as possible.
So what's the most challenging part about.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Your job in all regards? I mean, fire can be challenging, right? We go into some of these places where there's not very many roads. There's not many people that get to see some of these places. And then we have to put into the mix of fighting a wildfire with ultimately changing weather, hot, deep terrain.
It's challenging. So, I mean, that's obviously the challenging part of it. But I think recruitment and retention is a challenge. And I'm not saying just for hell attack, but I think in the fire program as a whole, there's jobs that are paying just as much as fire guys are, and there's. It's hard to keep people that are. Want to do a tough job. Right. Like, we. We're out there. We will be gone for 14 days. Sometimes longer. You roll longer, you're sleeping on the ground. A lot of times, food is not the greatest. You're away from your family, so that's hard to do.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: You're really selling it, Brandon.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: I know. Well, it's hard to say, like, but it's kind of for love of the game, right? Like, you want to do. This is a great job. It's the best job I've ever had, to be honest. And to be able to spend that hard time and do hard things with my friends and my crew and all these other people that we get to tie in with at the end of the day. Yeah, it's. You look back and you're like, yeah, we did that and we accomplished that. So the retention and recruitment, there's a lot of people that are like, oh, well, I stay home and do this and come close to making it, but they're missing out on a lot of life experiences and that teamwork of, there's a lot of challenging things out in this world, but we can make it and we can do it, you know, and we just have to work together to make sure that we can do it. Look out for each other, and then that life work balance, trying to balance that out as best that we can so that you do get to go see your family and you do get to take some time off to go say, hey, you know, I'm gonna make my buddy's wedding and I'm gonna be there for my family reunion. That's one thing that's really awesome about hell attack is we can make and move some stuff around and we can do a lot of things to help that. Hey, yeah, we need to get you to that. That's important to you. We're going to try and push our effort to make that work for you because what's it all worth if we're not having fun, right? And it's the big thing in my eyes, if like, hey, take care of them, take care of everybody and they'll take care of you back. So when you need them in that next role and you need them, hey, it's going to be a long, hard roll. They're going to be ready to push for you and they're going to be ready to do and give everything that they can for you as well.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: How about you, Taylor?
[00:24:33] Speaker D: Yeah, a lot of the same things that Brandon said, I would just second those, but I think one of the challenging things that I see for just everyone in fire is being proficient at everything. Technology, hiring, aviation, medical stuff, operate like operational, like fire, actual suppression, things falling, you know, running chainsaws, medical incidents like an iwi, being proficient at your mers, and I could probably add 15 other things to that list. But being good, not just proficient, but being good at all of those different things, it's a lot. And like I always say, I'm like, man, my brain is only so big and I only have space for certain amount of things. So, like, if something comes in and I want to try and be an expert in. In something, I got to take something out. So I think that's. Yeah, like baseball stats, those are going to have to go, like, you know, got to make room for something. So, yeah, just being not just proficient, but being good at all of these different aspects is really challenging. And then what skinny said is like, balancing that life and work, I think there's a balance between loving your job and obsessing over your job. I think that's a pretty razor thin line and I think it's easy. It's easy to fall into it. Brandon and I, we have those conversations with each other that we both love the heck out of our jobs. And sometimes we got to check ourselves of, like, hey, like there's life outside of work. And that balance, it's difficult.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. So an issue that we have every year and we've seen since the kind of been tracking since the mid two thousands is something that we also have been challenging for everyone. Working in aviation and on wildfire is civilian drone incursions. And I wanted to kind of bring that up because I wanted to know if you guys have ever, on an incident or ever had an issue with drone incursions where it actually just has to shut down aviation operations on an incident.
Have you, Brandon, ever experienced that?
[00:27:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So we've experienced drone incursions and stuff.
They're definitely getting, I would say fewer, but we still get a bunch of them. It's a big deal, especially in the aviation community. I mean, those drones sometimes are really hard to see, and then pilots are out there, and they're not focusing so much on drones as much as other aircraft and fighting fires and having the correct communications. And not only are drones hazardous, we have power lines, we have trees, we have different fighting, battling winds. And there's a ton of stuff that's going on. It's a dynamic environment that we're in, and we're fighting fires in. And to just add another piece of another hazard such as a drone and shutting down all aviation operations can be super detrimental to the success of a fire.
If there's a shot crew that's holding an intense piece of line and they need aviation, or if retardant planes and air attack are all up and it shuts everything down, that puts a lot of danger towards the guys on the line as well. When they're kind of counting on that aviation resource, those assets be able to help and to be able to do their job safely and efficiently on that world. And shutting all that down definitely puts us behind the curve of the fire, and it puts a lot of people at risk into the realm of, okay, can we still do this safely? Can we still operate in this manner without the aviation support that we do have? And it comes down to, is it safe for anyone? And if it's not, then we need to pull the plug on that stuff, and that's where it comes to be such a problem.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Yeah, especially when you say that again. Oh, I was just gonna say especially when you were focusing. Like, you, you have your tactics lined out to use the aviation, and you're on a line, maybe there's a community nearby or just firefighters on the line that are relying on that, and you have to shut it down, then you have to switch everything up.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
And, I mean, we always talk about adaptability, but when you're having to adapt to somebody that's just maybe not well informed or wants to get that video for the gram, it's not worth it. It's putting a lot of people at risk, pilots, firefighters, a community, if their houses are in danger and stuff like that. And just understanding, like, what the real consequences of maybe flying your drone for two minutes in an occupied airspace that's doing a lot of crazy things and there's a lot of stuff that's happening.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think people really understand that. Oh, just like, sneak up there and get a bird's eye view of this real quick. But it can mess people up.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it messes a lot of things up. And when you see it, and we got to say something, I mean, we gotta. We gotta report that out to everybody because we talk about our helitec family, our aviation family, our firefighter family. Like, we're putting everybody at risk, and we can't have that. I mean, it's just not. Not a sensible thing to do. So you gotta say something if you see it, I mean, bring it up to anybody, or if you're an engine guy and you see somebody's drone out and there's aviation up, or I, even if there is an aviation up, see where it's at. Report it. See if you can't see the culprit of it because it's got to stop so that it doesn't end up being a catastrophe at some point.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: Right. I think it was 2016, we had a record number of 41 incursions that had actually stopped fire, like aviation operations on incidents. Since then, it's dropped to about 23 a year. But that's a still too many. We shouldn't be having any. So we're trying to do educational efforts. But, yeah, having you talk about it a little bit and just what it really does mean to firefighters on the ground and actually communities, it puts life, homes, property at risk and our natural resources. Like, we have to stop some suppression operations with aviation assets and can't put in that retardant line, help those ground crews, you could lose a line and lose a lot more acres and timber, so.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:24] Speaker D: Yep. And that's something, too, I think. Like, those folks that are flying those drones, they're not going to fly them. When there's no smoke in the air, it's usually, it's usually in crunch time. It's not. Yeah. You know, during the mop up phase, nobody. Nobody wants to fly their drone to see a black spot. They want to get the good stuff. And so what happens when they're trying to get that shot is usually when we, those hotshot crews or engines or whoever it is, that's usually when they need them the most.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: And when something like that happens, then, or any type of incident with aviation. Right. You have to file that. Does that go, like, a report to the FAA or. I think there's a report called the safecom. Is that it?
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's a safecom. And then we would run that up. We would go over kind of the whole situation. And for the fire community, safecom is the stuff that happens in the air, and the safe nets is stuff that happens on the ground. Safe comms are meant to be, like, a learning factor in the big realm of things. It's not a I got you or anything like that. It's something to say, hey, this happened. This is how we dealt with it. This is what we had to do, so on and so forth. So that, as I say, like, the community of fire, they all understand of, like, oh, this has happened before. This is what they did. How can we learn from that? Or is there something that we need to change up in that regards to do that? So if you do save thumbs, I mean, they're online, they're not super hard to fill out. And I think everybody, if you. I mean, especially with drone incursions and stuff like that, and then running it up the chain through your hella base, through your ASGs, through your AOBD, kind of all those people all need to be in the loop of it and just kind of track that stuff down. But safe comms are a good thing. Safe nets are a good thing, too, just to track trends and see what's going on and see how we can better ourselves. I mean, who else knows than our own community of, like, okay, so I saw this. Maybe somebody else has a different solution or a better idea of how we can rectify the situation that did happen.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: So switching it up a little bit. What do you like most? And I think you kind of maybe talked about this in the intro. It's like Christmas every day, but what do you like most about being on a hill attack crew? Or maybe what's your most, your favorite part, or maybe even least favorite part about firefighting? What was my favorite first?
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah. My favorite. I. Every day's Christmas, right? Like, we always are on our toes. You never know what you're gonna see the next day, day to day. Some of the views that we get from a helicopter, undescribable pictures don't do it justice. I send my wife pictures from the helicopter sometimes, and she's like, what am I looking at? I'm like, yeah, well, yeah, it's never.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: That's never as good as a picture?
[00:34:29] Speaker B: No, it really isn't. But we get to see some of that stuff from a bird's eye view, right? Like everybody always says, the superhuman power that they want is to fly. We get to do that on a daily basis. So that's one of my favorite parts, is we get to have some of the best views of some of the most beautiful country in the nation. And then the teamwork aspect of seeing, okay, we have a long chunk of lion and we got a. We might be in the desert and it might be running and gunning, and it doesn't look like you have any hope or you're not going to catch it. And then by the end of the day, you wrapped it up. And then we're high fiving and giving each other attaboys and doing it. Yeah, just the camaraderie. And then tying in with another crew to say, hey, man, great work over there. We wouldn't have been able to hold our side if you weren't able to do your side. So that teamwork aspect is one of my favorite things about this job, this crew, all hell attack crews, just being able to work together towards a common goal and accomplish some awesome things.
Least favorite part, I guess, would be sitting on a tarmac with the unknown and waiting for the next one.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: So it's that hurry up and wait, right?
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Yep. The hurry up and wait, being ready and trying to stay engaged and like, okay, we can't let that complacency bug set in. So keeping everybody on the ball and ready to go. Nice edge all the time.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of hard to be, like, constantly be thinking about being on your game when. Yeah. You're sitting there waiting, so.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: Yep. It could be tough, but we try to make through it.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: How about you, taylor?
[00:36:12] Speaker D: Oh, man. Like the. I'll start off with my least favorite, and then we'll end it on a high note. The admin side. And it's necessary.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:36:22] Speaker D: We've got to do it. But, yeah, the admin stuff is all the paperwork. Yep. And that's, you know, fair warning for any prospective teletech folks out there or folks that want to get into aviation. There's a good dose of additional paperwork that's there, but, yeah. So I would say that that part, but still, same thing for skinny. Like, hasn't scared us off yet. So, uh, either we're just too stubborn or, uh, yeah, we're just too dumb. Not sure, but, yeah, that would be my least favorite part.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: My favorite credit cards do.
[00:36:58] Speaker D: Oh, man, I knew it. I knew it.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: See, it's right there.
Yeah, one of those things, uh, there.
[00:37:06] Speaker D: Yeah, that. That part's always there, you know? You know, come 19th of the month, you better have your stuff ready or else your boss is going to be.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Chirping and he called you out on the podcast.
[00:37:20] Speaker D: No, no. I thought I was getting away, but that's okay. My favorite part is the people. You experience stuff with these people on your. Not only on your crew, but on other crews, you experience stuff that challenges you to a degree that you never, never think you could accomplish. And individually, you can't accomplish it. It takes the collective, it takes the whole group.
And those bonds that you build with those people. It's life changing. It gives you that extra, extra 10% to make it to the top of that hill on the hike. Or do that manifest correctly and double check it and make sure that it's accurate. Those people is really.
And those people in the relationships that you build with them are what has brought me back year after year after year.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: When you talk about actually most people you talk to in fire to say it's the people that keep them in it and the cool things you get to do, but really it's those relationships and people. So.
[00:38:34] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And then sometimes. And then you get to. You get to add those, those two, you know, you. I can't count how many flights that I've had with skinny over something that some national park or the Sawtooth mountains or the Sawtooth wilderness. And you get to do all this cool stuff and see all this cool stuff, and then you get to also share it with those people that you sweat and toil with day in and day out. It's pretty dang awesome.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. I imagine you have countless amazing experiences to share, but if you had to pick one, what would be your most memorable experience during your job?
[00:39:17] Speaker B: So, the most memorable experience, I don't know. I've seen, I guess, a bunch of good memorable ones and a lot of great memories that we've had. And this happens usually about every year. And it's one of my favorite things to see. But as some of the overhead are a little bit older, I wouldn't call us old by any means, but we've been in this game for a while. But that early morning wake up and you can see like, one of the most memorable ones was on a fire and there was a good little fog layer in and an inversion had set in and you can just kind of see the outlines of guys. And it's a slow get up in the morning for some of us old guys stretching out and going, oh, man, that was a rough day yesterday, but we're going to sign up and do it again. Right? And then sitting around having coffee in the morning, getting ready, getting ready for briefing and putting everything away and getting ready for that is one of my most favorite times because you can look back on the day before or the shift before and just going, you know what, we did a good job. We gave it everything that we had and we had everybody on board in the same amount. And seeing those older guys and the young guys that are still trying to do it as well, that's awesome. Those early mornings are my favorite, with the guys and seeing everybody gearing up for the next day, no matter what comes down the pipeline.
[00:40:46] Speaker D: Guys. Got me.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Oh, we got you now.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: Gotcha now.
[00:40:49] Speaker D: Okay, so talk about adaptability. Phone up in the dash. I got the temperature too hot in the hot tub, so had to put it on the vent for a second. But, uh, yep, we're, we're adaptable.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: Great.
And this may go down as your most memorable experience, right?
[00:41:12] Speaker D: That might. Yeah, it's working towards that way.
Yeah. So I think back, and of all of them, I remember I was just a heckam at the time, just a seasonal crew member. And we got dispatched down to Arizona for pre positioned in 2016.
And we're working out of Wickenburg through the BLM station down there. Super, super cool, folks. So shout out, Wickenburg, folks. But we got an IA. Can't remember is either called Goodwin or Bumblebee, one of the two. But it was hot, right? Arizona is always hot, especially in the summer, especially on fires. But we hit a stretch. It was hot, hot. I mean, not even able to start the helicopter. Hot 116, something like that. Get this, IA and we deploy the bucket. The crew we start got a chunk of line and we started cold trailing, securing along and we probably got the I eight, I don't know, 10:10 a.m. something like that. Got our section aligned and we started cruising along. And as the day went on, it was hot, hot. And it was the kind of thing where cold trailing. We could do that. We were fine, you know, keep a nice slow and steady work pace. And we were kicking butt. We were cruising along. We had help support the helicopter with buckets if needed. And then we get to this section and it was. Got to thicker fields, a little bit more brush, a little bit hotter section. And there was no digging, no chainsaw, no cutting in line. It was just too dang hot. Like you were going to start dropping folks if you did that. And we were able to get, we crested more support with bucket work and got a chinook and skinny. Was there a couple other folks, I think there was probably six of us. And it ended up, we set up a little shade tarp just so that we could escape this heat for at least a little while to get some reprieve. And basically what ended up happening on this hot chunk of line. We did shifts. You would rotate, so you go out, call the bucket in, call the chinook in, get a couple drops from, from the helicopter until, until you absolutely couldn't stand it anymore. And then you'd go and go tag the next guy in guy or gal and then it was their turn and they went out and called the buckets in and ended up doing that for, oh, I don't know, a full fuel cycle on a chinook, which can be a long, yeah, it's a long time.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: Big aircraft too.
[00:44:12] Speaker D: Yep, yep. And, and those guys, I still remember, they just kicked butt for us because you were not digging line, you weren't using a chainsaw. It was just too dang hot. And, uh, you were looking forward to getting done with your, your shift on Cullinan buckets so that the next guy could get out and, and do it so you could get underneath that shade. Yeah. And then we got some nice cold Jimmy John sandwiches got delivered. And, uh, just, just fair warning, when it's 116 in Arizona and you get cold, Jimmy John's maybe let those things acclimate a little bit because a cold, cold sandwich on a, on a hot day like that varied results for folks. Some of them, it didn't, didn't sit quite as well with some. So, yeah, that one, that one really sticks out in my mind. Just the adaptability. We were like, man, it is just too hot. Like, we're gonna, we're gonna get folks hurt if we try and like dig line or cut line. But we were able to figure out a way to keep progressing and keep securing this chunk of ground. So, yeah, that'll stick with me for a long, long time.
[00:45:26] Speaker C: Well, that's intense.
You guys are tough.
[00:45:30] Speaker A: It was hot.
[00:45:31] Speaker C: It sounds hot. Yeah. I think I'd prefer to live in Brandon's memory.
[00:45:35] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:45:36] Speaker C: Early morning wake ups with coffee and the sunrise.
[00:45:39] Speaker D: I think they're okay. I mean, that's also a good one for sure.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: I was anticipating you saying, and we're running under the helicopter and it's dropping on us and we're getting.
[00:45:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Or are we trying to get under the water. Yeah.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Hopping in the pumpkin, making it into a swimming pool or.
[00:46:02] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:46:03] Speaker D: Yeah, no, we wish. I think we all would have wished for maybe an errant bucket drop that day, for sure.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: Awesome. So, in closing, is there anything else you'd like to add, something we might have missed or last comments?
[00:46:18] Speaker D: Carrie and Piper, thanks for having us. Glad we were able to do it. Obviously a few little hiccups and scheduling things and stuff like that, but like. Like Wildland firefighters, like, we are adaptable. Right. We made it work and. Yeah. And got it done. So thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us.
[00:46:40] Speaker A: Thank you for being here.
[00:46:41] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for your perseverance.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Did have to reschedule a couple times to figure all that out. And even though it was like, oh, they're on a fire, and, oh, now Taylor's going to another fire.
But we made it work.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Kerry, Piper, really appreciate the opportunity and hopefully we got a solid message out for those that do want to maybe think about hell attack and stuff like that. Thanks for being flexible with us. We're 100 different ways. Like I said, every day is a different day. Right, right. Taylor's gone this morning.
We're hard.
[00:47:18] Speaker D: Yeah, we're hard to pin down.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: So this was, this is really lucky that we got you.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's perfect. But anybody wanting to do helattack, I mean, it's a great way to see a bunch of different fuel types, different country, different areas to work in. Just a good experience overall for the rest of the fire community out there is be safe, could be a long season. It's going to be a long season either way, whether you're starting in the southwest or if you're going to be working elsewhere, there's a lot of stuff that can happen throughout the season and take care of your body, take care of your folks overall, you know, fire, be smart about fire, know your surroundings. And ultimately, as my boss says, is be a good human.
[00:48:06] Speaker A: Nice, nice closing statement.
And to you, Taylor, stay cool.
[00:48:12] Speaker D: Yeah, I'll try. Thanks again.
[00:48:15] Speaker A: New Mexico might be a little hot, too.
[00:48:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: And thank you, both of you, Brandon, Skinny and Taylor, for joining today for the 28th episode of Wildfire Matters to tell us a little bit more about working on hell attack crew. You obviously love your jobs and love what you do, and it's awesome that we could connect with you actually on fire assignments as we're going into what looks like another busy part of the fire year. Always busy during this time of year with summer months and everything drying out. So that's kind of a reminder for people going into these months to help our firefighters such as Skinny and Taylor by helping prevent fires too. We have a lot of issues with lightning fires as is, so any fire we can prevent helps these guys out a lot too.
[00:49:05] Speaker C: And to our listeners, if you have questions, comments, or even suggestions on on future topics for future episodes, please email them to BLM FA NIFC comments BLM Dot gov and use Wildfire Matters podcast in the subject line. To learn more about NIFC or the BLM, please visit our website nIFC dot Gov and follow us at BLM fire on Facebook, Twitter, which is now X, and Instagram.
[00:49:34] Speaker A: Yeah, and thank you all for listening, and please join us next time when we spark a conversation with Matt Dunton and possibly another member of the unmanned or uncrewed aircraft systems. Matt is the national aviation program manager for that program, and as we were kind of talking about drone incursion, we thought it would be a good segue to talk about how we actually use UA's on fires and very useful for us when they're managed properly to use them on fires. So looking forward to that one.
[00:50:06] Speaker C: Until then, stay safe and be wildfire aware.
